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6 Jan 2020 U.S. Events (Split from A Deeply Fractured US)

Bruce Monkhouse

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The secondary level of mandarins does not change with the change of Govt.
Doesn't matter if it was Joe or Don at the seat....
 

kkwd

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Maybe Matt Gates should have asked something else then. But he’s too busy fighting off legal issues with underaged kids.

thanks. The general is way more credible than the politician.
Who cares about Gaetz? I didn't post the original Tweet on that one. I don't think I even mentioned him.
 

Remius

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Who cares about Gaetz? I didn't post the original Tweet on that one. I don't think I even mentioned him.
Exactly who cares about Gaetz. But you focused on Milley’s response about race that Gaetz brought up and was properly schooled by the good general.
 

mariomike

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Under Trump’s administration, seems about as good a reason for that side not to want a deep dive into this. Nah, they are making deals because their so called morals and beliefs only go so far,
On the bright side, America had a pretty good run.

If I understand my history correctly, they have had a "peaceful transition of power" every four years since 1801.

So, maybe this transition didn't quite go off without a hitch. But, still not a bad average over 220 years.

Hopefully, 2021 was just a glitch.

Or, will increased Capitol security become the "new normal", like it became at airports after the 9/11 terrorist attack?
 

Altair

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On the bright side, America had a pretty good run.

If I understand my history correctly, they have had a "peaceful transition of power" every four years since 1801.

So, maybe this transition didn't quite go off without a hitch. But, still not a bad average over 220 years.

Hopefully, 2021 was just a glitch.

Or, will increased Capitol security become the "new normal", like it became at airports after the 9/11 terrorist attack?
Would you think 1860 was peaceful?

If the national guard isn't deployed from now on during the transition period I would be shocked.
 

QV

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Actually it was a bunch of clowns who had no plans whatsoever, but were seemingly thrust into aura of knowing what they were doing because the only people with less of a plan that day were the security forces.....
You got it.
 

mariomike

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If the national guard isn't deployed from now on during the transition period I would be shocked.
Sorry to say, but that may become "the new normal" after 6 Jan., 2021.
 

Altair

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Sorry to say, but that may become "the new normal" after 6 Jan., 2021.
I just hope that American nonsense doesn't spread to Canada.

I don't think it will, because I don't think something like that could happen without a Trump like figure rallying a large group of people and then effectively lighting the match that set things off.

I don't imagine this could happen organically at the grass roots level.
 

Oldgateboatdriver

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I just hope that American nonsense doesn't spread to Canada.

I don't think it will, because I don't think something like that could happen without a Trump like figure rallying a large group of people and then effectively lighting the match that set things off.

I don't imagine this could happen organically at the grass roots level.
That's because there really is not such thing as "grass root level" in Canada. There are, in fact, very few political party members in Canada as a percentage of the eligible voters population when you compare to the US.

Moreover, I don't think something like what happened in the US can happen here because we do not elect our government, we only elect members of Parliament's lower chamber. The Prime Minister and his/her ministers are appointed by the Crown (as represented by the GG) and serve at Her Majesty's pleasure. Also, the supporting public service (both civil and uniformed) has sworn allegiance to the Crown, not to the constitution (whatever "upholding a constitution", which is always subject to interpretation, can possibly mean).

So in Canada, can you think of how the leader of a party who didn't get the majority, or even a sufficiently large minority, of the seats in the House of Commons, could get installed as PM if the GG asked someone else to form a government? I can't, especially considering that, in such scenario, such PM would basically have to "depose" the GG - which is akin to deposing the Crown. Whose orders would you follow as a member of the RCMP or of the CAF? I know who I would follow: Her Majesty because that's my oath.

Moreover, could you see such PM being able to get any collaboration whatsoever from any parts of the apolitical public service, or managing to enact any law whatsoever through a Parliament it does not control from a majority?
 

Jarnhamar

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Actually it was a bunch of clowns who had no plans whatsoever, but were seemingly thrust into aura of knowing what they were doing because the only people with less of a plan that day were the security forces.....

Good observation.

It was an ultra violent and chaotic melee but its also interesting that for the most heavily armed nation in the world (120 firearms for ever 100 people) the only firearm discharged was a police officer shooting someone trying to bust through a barricade.
 

Altair

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That's because there really is not such thing as "grass root level" in Canada. There are, in fact, very few political party members in Canada as a percentage of the eligible voters population when you compare to the US.
There are a couple of movements, activists, and social movements I would consider to be grass roots movements.
Moreover, I don't think something like what happened in the US can happen here because we do not elect our government, we only elect members of Parliament's lower chamber. The Prime Minister and his/her ministers are appointed by the Crown (as represented by the GG) and serve at Her Majesty's pleasure. Also, the supporting public service (both civil and uniformed) has sworn allegiance to the Crown, not to the constitution (whatever "upholding a constitution", which is always subject to interpretation, can possibly mean).
Let me stop you right there. Jan 6th didn't happen because of the support of the public service. The public service was dedicated to the peaceful transfer of power, and a group of people decided to violently interfere with that.
So in Canada, can you think of how the leader of a party who didn't get the majority, or even a sufficiently large minority, of the seats in the House of Commons, could get installed as PM if the GG asked someone else to form a government? I can't, especially considering that, in such scenario, such PM would basically have to "depose" the GG - which is akin to deposing the Crown. Whose orders would you follow as a member of the RCMP or of the CAF? I know who I would follow: Her Majesty because that's my oath.
Just as I said above, Jan 6th happened regardless of what the powers that be had to say about it. Say what you will about the RCMP or military and GG, if a crowd of people were storming parliament hill on the day of the vote of the Throne Speech, it matter little what the opinion the RCMP is. It matter what the hell PPS is going to need to do about it.
Moreover, could you see such PM being able to get any collaboration whatsoever from any parts of the apolitical public service, or managing to enact any law whatsoever through a Parliament it does not control from a majority?
Irrelevant. Even if the Jan 6th mob had captured and killed members of Congress, gotten their hands on the electoral votes, and stopped the certification of the election, Trump would still not have won the election. But that doesn't mean they didn't try.

So no, I couldn't see a successful attempt made, but that's not the question. The question is whether a attempt could be made at all. Could a mob gather, assemble, head towards parliament hill and breech it?

I want to say no because I don't think that at a grass roots level such a gathering could be made.

If a political leader banged the drum of fraudulent election for months and told their die hard followers to rally on the day of the throne speech, and to fight for their country, maybe.

But I don't see any party leader intellectually dishonest enough to go down that road, which is why I don't see anything like that happening in Canada. Well, I take that back. Bernier might. But he doesn't have near enough popular support for that.
 

mariomike

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< snip > the only firearm discharged was a police officer shooting someone trying to bust through a barricade.
Hodges said that he and likely many other officers didn't shoot at the rioters because they feared it would escalate the situation.
"I was wondering how many more bombs are there? What's the trigger? Is it going to be a cellphone? Is it on a timer? How many guns are there...if we start firing, is that the signal to set off the explosives?" Hodges said in his testimony.
"That's the reason why I didn't shoot anyone," he said.
Hodges said there were about 9,000 "terrorists" at the Capitol that day and only a couple hundred officers.
"If that turned into a firefight, we would have lost and this was a fight we couldn't afford to lose," he said.

Jarnhamar said,
It was an ultra violent and chaotic melee

Nothing new about "ultra violent and chaotic melee"s.

This was new,
 

Booter

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Just as I said above, Jan 6th happened regardless of what the powers that be had to say about it. Say what you will about the RCMP or military and GG, if a crowd of people were storming parliament hill on the day of the vote of the Throne Speech, it matter little what the opinion the RCMP is. It matter what the hell PPS is going to need to do about it.

im not sure I understand what that means. Could you expand?

and also- the director of the PPS is an RCMP Chief Super who directs operations and is constant lateral communication through a communications and operations centre with the several hundred RCMP officers and CMs PSs also involved in operation in Nat Capital region for various protective functions.

unless something has changed VERY recently.

Edit- I actually figured it out. Sorry. You mean the practicality of the situation has very little to do with the opinions. Like the guys on the frontside dealing with it don’t care what the “odds of it happening were”
 
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brihard

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There are a couple of movements, activists, and social movements I would consider to be grass roots movements.

Let me stop you right there. Jan 6th didn't happen because of the support of the public service. The public service was dedicated to the peaceful transfer of power, and a group of people decided to violently interfere with that.

Just as I said above, Jan 6th happened regardless of what the powers that be had to say about it. Say what you will about the RCMP or military and GG, if a crowd of people were storming parliament hill on the day of the vote of the Throne Speech, it matter little what the opinion the RCMP is. It matter what the hell PPS is going to need to do about it.

Irrelevant. Even if the Jan 6th mob had captured and killed members of Congress, gotten their hands on the electoral votes, and stopped the certification of the election, Trump would still not have won the election. But that doesn't mean they didn't try.

So no, I couldn't see a successful attempt made, but that's not the question. The question is whether a attempt could be made at all. Could a mob gather, assemble, head towards parliament hill and breech it?

I want to say no because I don't think that at a grass roots level such a gathering could be made.

If a political leader banged the drum of fraudulent election for months and told their die hard followers to rally on the day of the throne speech, and to fight for their country, maybe.

But I don't see any party leader intellectually dishonest enough to go down that road, which is why I don't see anything like that happening in Canada. Well, I take that back. Bernier might. But he doesn't have near enough popular support for that.
Between PPS, Ottawa Police, and the significant (though less visible) RCMP presence in Ottawa, Parliment can certainly be hard secured if necessary. I’d be much more worried about lone actors like that dumb dumb who smashed his way into the grounds of Rideau Hall. We’re lucky he wasn’t willing to fight it out with the Mounties. Could have been really bad.

I do think our institutions around elections and the transition of power are quite resilient, and the fact that our system allows for minority governments and has the whole ‘commands the confidence of Parliament’ dynamic serves as a pressure release. I struggle to imagine it being possible to convince the necessary collection of people that our electoral integrity was under threat. We aren’t nearly so hyper-partisan up here, and the electoral system is more consistent and centralized, with fewer steps and less room for misinformation and propaganda around the system itself.
 

lenaitch

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Good observation.

It was an ultra violent and chaotic melee but its also interesting that for the most heavily armed nation in the world (120 firearms for ever 100 people) the only firearm discharged was a police officer shooting someone trying to bust through a barricade.
Which surprises me. Not that I have followed it breathlessly, and no doubt there were some, none of video I have seen shows any firearms; certainly not s/a rifles slung over their shoulders like some do just to go to lunch.

I doubt a similar event could happen here. We don't have a critical mass of hard core on either end of the political spectrum and aren't as politically polarized. Things have changed over time though, in terms of parliamentary, legislative and even judicial security.
 

Booter

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Which surprises me. Not that I have followed it breathlessly, and no doubt there were some, none of video I have seen shows any firearms; certainly not s/a rifles slung over their shoulders like some do just to go to lunch.

I doubt a similar event could happen here. We don't have a critical mass of hard core on either end of the political spectrum and aren't as politically polarized. Things have changed over time though, in terms of parliamentary, legislative and even judicial security.
During the Whistlestop cafe Covid enforcement there were a variety of “scope” photos that were going around where people where implying or overtly saying and showing that they were glassing officers from concealed positions.

I’m less convinced we don’t have the angry frustrated people required to have a boil over here too 🤷‍♀️
 

Altair

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im not sure I understand what that means. Could you expand?

and also- the director of the PPS is an RCMP Chief Super who directs operations and is constant lateral communication through a communications and operations centre with the several hundred RCMP officers and CMs PSs also involved in operation in Nat Capital region for various protective functions.

unless something has changed VERY recently.

Edit- I actually figured it out. Sorry. You mean the practicality of the situation has very little to do with the opinions. Like the guys on the frontside dealing with it don’t care what the “odds of it happening were”
This is exactly it. The how and the why matters little to those dealing with the active situation. Would the institutions ever back a angry violent mob? No. Does that matter to anyone needing to actively deal with said mob? No.
 

Altair

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Between PPS, Ottawa Police, and the significant (though less visible) RCMP presence in Ottawa, Parliment can certainly be hard secured if necessary.
So could the capital building. But if caught unprepared, bad things happen. If the capital building was secured on Jan 6th as it was Jan 20th, we wouldn't be having this conversation, nothing would have happened.

In a Canadian context, would we have the foresight that the yanks lacked and harden the hill if a political leader was calling for a rally on the day of the throne speech, calling for the mob to fight for their country?
I’d be much more worried about lone actors like that dumb dumb who smashed his way into the grounds of Rideau Hall. We’re lucky he wasn’t willing to fight it out with the Mounties. Could have been really bad.
I assumed that's what PPS was created for.
I do think our institutions around elections and the transition of power are quite resilient, and the fact that our system allows for minority governments and has the whole ‘commands the confidence of Parliament’ dynamic serves as a pressure release. I struggle to imagine it being possible to convince the necessary collection of people that our electoral integrity was under threat. We aren’t nearly so hyper-partisan up here, and the electoral system is more consistent and centralized, with fewer steps and less room for misinformation and propaganda around the system itself.
I struggled to see what happened on Jan 6th happening in any western democracy.

Now I think that assuming it won't happen is the foolish position.
 
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