A Deeply Fractured US

[Brad Sallows]

Whether or not a leak is injurious to national security or public interest is irrelevant; I thought it should be clear that what is at stake is political advantage: when it suits the people in charge to compromise national security or public interest with a leak, they do so and no consequences seem to fall on anyone ("permitted"). When a leak doesn't suit them, they grind the source to dust ("non-permitted").

If you want to leak something too dangerous to risk attribution (eg. a reporter intimidated into revealing sources), you'd want to orchestrate something more complicated involving a scapegoat.

 

[KevinB]

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2023/04/16/tucker-carlson-marjorie-greene-lindsey-graham-leaker-gop-defense-ip-vpx.cnn

 

[KevinB]

Whether or not a leak is injurious to national security or public interest is irrelevant; I thought it should be clear that what is at stake is political advantage: when it suits the people in charge to compromise national security or public interest with a leak, they do so and no consequences seem to fall on anyone ("permitted"). When a leak doesn't suit them, they grind the source to dust ("non-permitted").

If you want to leak something too dangerous to risk attribution (eg. a reporter intimidated into revealing sources), you'd want to orchestrate something more complicated involving a scapegoat.

That’s a rather odd take.

I would encourage folks who aren’t familiar with the declassification process down here.

Declassification Frequently Asked Questions

This is archived content from the U.S. Department of Justice website. The information here may be outdated and links may no longer function. Please contact webmaster@usdoj.gov if you have any questions about the archive site.

www.justice.gov

As well as the pertinent sections of our espionage act in this case Sec 793, 794, and 798

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 794 - Gathering or delivering defense information to aid foreign government

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 798 - Disclosure of classified information

www.law.cornell.edu

Also that Classified Information is usually an aggregate. Individual items themselves may not be classified, but when given in context with others that information becomes classified.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I just wanna know how a 21 year old Mass ANG kid got that kind of classified information.

He's a dummy for letting it out, and the US Military is a dummy for giving that low rung of an individual that kind of info.

 

[brihard]

I just wanna know how a 21 year old Mass ANG kid got that kind of classified information.

He's a dummy for letting it out, and the US Military is a dummy for giving that low rung of an individual that kind of info.

Their National Guard is different in a lot of ways from our reserves. They have a lot of full time taskings that they’ve absorbed over the years. Kid had three years in and his job was explicitly to work on stuff within classified environments. I don’t find it particularly weird that he would have access.

E-3/4s do a LOT of the heavy lifting in intelligence analysis. You think we don’t have Pte/Cpl in the intelligence world, that we hired at age 18, with access to stuff of a similar nature a couple years later?

 

[dimsum]

Their National Guard is different in a lot of ways from our reserves. They have a lot of full time taskings that they’ve absorbed over the years. Kid had three years in and his job was explicitly to work on stuff within classified environments. I don’t find it particularly weird that he would have access.

E-3/4s do a LOT of the heavy lifting in intelligence analysis. You think we don’t have Pte/Cpl in the intelligence world, that we hired at age 18, with access to stuff of a similar nature a couple years later?

Before we get led astray, his job title, according to the BBC News article, is "Cyber Transport Systems Journeyman".

Cyber Transport Systems Specialist - U.S. Air Force

Discover a fulfilling career as a Cyber Transport Systems specialist, playing a vital role in maintaining the infrastructure of U.S. Air Force communications network.

www.airforce.com

Basically an ATIS or ACISS Tech, not an Int Op.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Their National Guard is different in a lot of ways from our reserves. They have a lot of full time taskings that they’ve absorbed over the years. Kid had three years in and his job was explicitly to work on stuff within classified environments. I don’t find it particularly weird that he would have access.

E-3/4s do a LOT of the heavy lifting in intelligence analysis. You think we don’t have Pte/Cpl in the intelligence world, that we hired at age 18, with access to stuff of a similar nature a couple years later?

You're way too forgiving. I have no doubt we have folks with short services and a young age at that know some stuff, I refuse to believe they even have access to anything like that. He didn't leak the top speed of a CPF, he leaked high level political/military information.

In Canadian terms you're talking about a reserve RCAF, Cpl (At best) ACISS Tech ( Thank you @dimsum ). I think a deeper dive needs to be done on the practices that put this individual into a position to get their hands on that material.

 

[dimsum]

In Canadian terms you're talking about a reserve RCAF, Cpl (At best) ACISS Tech ( Thank you @dimsum ). I think a deeper dive needs to be done on the practices that put this individual into a position to get their hands on that material.

This guy wasn't a Class A "one night a week" reservist though. At the time of the leaks, he was TD'd to Fort Bragg, NC from his home unit, which is a military intelligence wing.

I'm sure there will be some hard questions asked, but his work situation is closer to Reg F than Class A.

 

[CBH99]

Wow, coming out on the side of someone facing potentially 300 charges for espionage against the US is a strange new take, even for that particular lunatic.

At what point do they cut bait and get her off the oversight committees and other places where she has access to intelligence?

So I may get flamed for this, or it may have already been discussed as somebody's viewpoints. Just my thoughts on this tho...

- I'd temporarily the her off the oversight committees. She seems like she could do a lot of damage purely for the sake of partisan politics...

- But is her one point all that wrong though? Is the real enemy a 21yo kid who enlisted for most likely the same romantic reasons as a lot of us did around that age?

I think her use of the word 'enemy' is what doomed that question though...

Sure, he broke the law. Big time. And I'm guessing he was aware of that when he did leak them.

But if these documents are so damn sensitive that 'people will die & international relations will be in ruins!' then why was a 21yo kid able to access them so freely that he could leak them onto a Discord server in the first place?

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Before we get led astray, his job title, according to the BBC News article, is "Cyber Transport Systems Journeyman".

Cyber Transport Systems Specialist - U.S. Air Force

Discover a fulfilling career as a Cyber Transport Systems specialist, playing a vital role in maintaining the infrastructure of U.S. Air Force communications network.

www.airforce.com

Basically an ATIS or ACISS Tech, not an Int Op.

ATIS Tech, ... Enh sort of. Depends on where they're employed.

ACISS (Praise Jimmy) is no longer a thing. Information Systems Techs are though and definitely administer networks

Cyber Operators are the more likely equivalent.

You're way too forgiving. I have no doubt we have folks with short services and a young age at that know some stuff, I refuse to believe they even have access to anything like that. He didn't leak the top speed of a CPF, he leaked high level political/military information.

In Canadian terms you're talking about a reserve RCAF, Cpl (At best) ACISS Tech ( Thank you @dimsum ). I think a deeper dive needs to be done on the practices that put this individual into a position to get their hands on that material.

I will mind my audience and say we have our own checks and balances in place outside of the FVEY/NATO requirements. I will not elaborate any further.

 

[Remius]

So I may get flamed for this, or it may have already been discussed as somebody's viewpoints. Just my thoughts on this tho...

- I'd temporarily the her off the oversight committees. She seems like she could do a lot of damage purely for the sake of partisan politics...

Nothing new there. Both sides do it. I don’t think she’s fit for any committee work but suspect someone owes her.

- But is her one point all that wrong though? Is the real enemy a 21yo kid who enlisted for most likely the same romantic reasons as a lot of us did around that age?

Her point was making this somehow about culture wars. Her using his skin colour, religion and gender was all to pander to her base.

I think her use of the word 'enemy' is what doomed that question though...

Sure, he broke the law. Big time. And I'm guessing he was aware of that when he did leak them.

But if these documents are so damn sensitive that 'people will die & international relations will be in ruins!' then why was a 21yo kid able to access them so freely that he could leak them onto a Discord server in the first place?

The fact that he is 21 years old is irrelevant. Is he qualified? Was he security cleared to do that job?

By all means review the procedures and what may have been missed and how that info could get out. But if we (in the west) are targeting young folks 17 and up to join then they will invariably get access to things.

 

[CBH99]

Nothing new there. Both sides do it. I don’t think she’s fit for any committee work but suspect someone owes her.

Her point was making this somehow about culture wars. Her using his skin colour, religion and gender was all to pander to her base.

The fact that he is 21 years old is irrelevant. Is he qualified? Was he security cleared to do that job?

By all means review the procedures and what may have been missed and how that info could get out. But if we (in the west) are targeting young folks 17 and up to join then they will invariably get access to things.

Agreed.

 

[Halifax Tar]

This guy wasn't a Class A "one night a week" reservist though. At the time of the leaks, he was TD'd to Fort Bragg, NC from his home unit, which is a military intelligence wing.

I'm sure there will be some hard questions asked, but his work situation is closer to Reg F than Class A.

Ya fair enough. I still don't think we tell our Cpl ACISS Techs the plans for the upcoming offensive in the Ukraine.

I think the system failed somewhere, or he got ahold of stuff he shouldnt have in a devious manner.

ATIS Tech, ... Enh sort of. Depends on where they're employed.

ACISS (Praise Jimmy) is no longer a thing. Information Systems Techs are though and definitely administer networks

Cyber Operators are the more likely equivalent.


I will mind my audience and say we have our own checks and balances in place outside of the FVEY/NATO requirements. I will not elaborate any further.

Absolutely, but security clearance level doesn't get you access to everything under the sun at that level. There is the need to know aspect.

Or at least that's my understanding.

An example is my dad when he was federal warden. He had a super high clearance, but only for the stuff he required for his job.

 

[Brad Sallows]

That’s a rather odd take.

I'm writing about politics, not law. When I write that a leak is permitted, I mean that little to no effort is made to apprehend the leaker because the leak serves political purposes. Selective enforcement.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Absolutely, but security clearance level doesn't get you access to everything under the sun at that level. There is the need to know aspect.

Or at least that's my understanding.

This is very correct. Its why we also have classification and containerization of information. Clearance is not a blank cheque for mayhem. Its also why I promptly deny access forms for those getting different accounts "just in case".

An example is my dad when he was federal warden. He had a super high clearance, but only for the stuff he required for his job.

This is the way.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The kid was a pipeline. He didn't have authority to get stuff; someone had to leave it where he could get it.

 

[brihard]

Ya fair enough. I still don't think we tell our Cpl ACISS Techs the plans for the upcoming offensive in the Ukraine.

I think the system failed somewhere, or he got ahold of stuff he shouldnt have in a devious manner.



Absolutely, but security clearance level doesn't get you access to everything under the sun at that level. There is the need to know aspect.

Or at least that's my understanding.

An example is my dad when he was federal warden. He had a super high clearance, but only for the stuff he required for his job.

Is there any indication that he leaked “the plans for the upcoming offensive in Ukraine”? I haven’t looked up when he did leak, but any commentary I’ve read has spoken of things like numerical assessments of equipment, casualties, etc. stuff that would fall within the ‘broad sea of data’ that the intelligence e community brings in and which results in analyses of varying quality.

Don’t get me wrong; there are things in this that surprise me. A 21 year old ANG E-3 having some manner of access to the stuff I understand him to have accessed isn’t one of them.

Very possible that my understanding of just what he had is wrong. I haven’t gone and won’t go looking to see any of it.

The kid was a pipeline. He didn't have authority to get stuff; someone had to leave it where he could get it.

You’re making a hell of an assumption here. He may not have had ‘authority’ in terms of being allowed to by need to know, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t have legitimate access into the systems, predicated on a broadly applied trust that people won’t go digging in to things they don’t have an articulable need to know. It would be self-defeating for an intelligence sharing architecture to be ‘specific permission first’ before accessing many files or documents; that would badly hamper analysts who are looking up info and reports to investigate something, and may need to do it in a hurry.

The probable cause affidavit I posted earlier in the thread describes him accessing materials on the system he used. I have no reason to doubt what investigators have found, and have sworn to in court on that matter.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Is there any indication that he leaked “the plans for the upcoming offensive in Ukraine”? I haven’t looked up when he did leak, but any commentary I’ve read has spoken of things like numerical assessments of equipment, casualties, etc. stuff that would fall within the ‘broad sea of data’ that the intelligence e community brings in and which results in analyses of varying quality.

Don’t get me wrong; there are things in this that surprise me. A 21 year old ANG E-3 having some manner of access to the stuff I understand him to have accessed isn’t one of them.

Very possible that my understanding of just what he had is wrong. I haven’t gone and won’t go looking to see any of it.

I was just using a made up example.

But this seems like a descent article.

What the leaked Pentagon documents reveal - 8 key takeaways

Ukraine's spring offensive and Chinese hypersonic weapons are among the issues highlighted in the leaks.

www.bbc.com

 

[brihard]

I was just using a made up example.

But this seems like a descent article.

What the leaked Pentagon documents reveal - 8 key takeaways

Ukraine's spring offensive and Chinese hypersonic weapons are among the issues highlighted in the leaks.

www.bbc.com

Ok. Cause I see a difference between “technical details about the other guy that he already knows about” versus “our side’s plans and intent”.

 

[Navy_Pete]

So I may get flamed for this, or it may have already been discussed as somebody's viewpoints. Just my thoughts on this tho...

- I'd temporarily the her off the oversight committees. She seems like she could do a lot of damage purely for the sake of partisan politics...

- But is her one point all that wrong though? Is the real enemy a 21yo kid who enlisted for most likely the same romantic reasons as a lot of us did around that age?

I think her use of the word 'enemy' is what doomed that question though...

Sure, he broke the law. Big time. And I'm guessing he was aware of that when he did leak them.

But if these documents are so damn sensitive that 'people will die & international relations will be in ruins!' then why was a 21yo kid able to access them so freely that he could leak them onto a Discord server in the first place?

In simplistic terms, 'why not both'?

I don't think that MPs here in Canada, Congress reps, Senators etc in the US should automatically get access to secret and up. And if she is siding with the leaker who put allies at real risk, that's a whole conversation for them to have.

At the same time, they probably also need to tighten their access to TS and particularly SCI info, but they don't need to wait until the political BS blows through to do that.