A Deeply Fractured US

[Halifax Tar]

Whoosh.

On that I am staying out of this minefield of a thread, good luck mods. I do not envy you.

Your post isn't worded well, I had to read it a few times interpret what you were trying to say.

Which is I think that the GOP is using the murder to further their own prerogative. How close am I ?

 

[Remius]

Your post isn't worded well, I had to read it a few times interpret what you were trying to say.

Which is I think that the GOP is using the murder to further their own prerogative. How close am I ?

That’s how I read it. All sides will use events like that if they think it advanced their agendas.

 

[Remius]

Reports coming in that he has died.

 

[Halifax Tar]

BBC is reporting that Donald Trump has announced Kirk’s death on his social media platform.

Charlie Kirk dies after being shot at campus event in Utah, says President Trump

Kirk - known for holding campus debates - was at a busy outdoor event when he was shot in the neck.

www.bbc.com

He was a father and husband. I feel terrible for that family and for that country.

 

[Altair]

It is. No amount of gun control will fix that. It requires something else.

New rules for firearms on campus - @theU

In order to carry a firearm on campus, a person must obtain a Concealed Carry Permit (CCP) from the State of Utah.

attheu.utah.edu

Utah just allowed open carry weapons on campuses. You sure about that?

And I’m sure if you loosened gun laws our shooting rates wouldn’t change much in relation to the current rate of violence. The guy who drove a van into a family or stabbed a pile of relatives would perhaps use a gun but the violence would still happen.

While stabbing and running into people using vehicles are indeed potentially lethal, guns are the most efficient way for people to kill other people. When I served I was given a bayonet and trained how to use vehicles, but I did get the sense from the military as an organization that the best way I as an individual could kill another was with the c6, c7 and c9

Control the guns sure but the violence is still likely to happen. With guns or without.

Violence still happens. But turns out, guns are still amongst the most lethal forms of violence.

You are not feeling bad about the wrong thing. Do you like political violence or denounce it? A man was shot while having a debate in an open forum and someone shot him for it. You want to be jaded about gun violence? Ok. But don’t just brush off what this really is.

I would feel bad. If someone punched him or stabbed him, or ran into him with a car. I would be up in arms about political violence.

But I draw the line at gun violence in the USA. I refuse to feel bad about that any more.

I never said you did. You posted a video on his opinion on gun control. THAT doesn’t merit minimizing what happened. He did not deserve to be shot for his opinion is a general statement. While we don’t know the motivation behind the shooting I’m pretty sure it can be assumed for now given the climate.

Again, I casually asked if his opinion on gun violence has changed. I posted the context for why I said that.

Nowhere did I or will I say he deserved what happened to him.

About the political viloence? Again. Part of the disease that is permeated down there.

I don't seperate political violence from gun violence.

The USA, again, has come to the conclusion that they are okay with gun violence. Whether that be shooting up a Jason Aldean concert, a mall, a school, a church, or a political figure speaking on campus peacefully, if they have collectively have decided that is the price they are willing to pay then I'm just not going to feel bad when it happens.

 

[Remius]

New rules for firearms on campus - @theU

In order to carry a firearm on campus, a person must obtain a Concealed Carry Permit (CCP) from the State of Utah.

attheu.utah.edu

Utah just allowed open carry weapons on campuses. You sure about that?


While stabbing and running into people using vehicles are indeed potentially lethal, guns are the most efficient way for people to kill other people. When I served I was given a bayonet and trained how to use vehicles, but I did get the sense from the military as an organization that the best way I as an individual could kill another was with the c6, c7 and c9

Violence still happens. But turns out, guns are still amongst the most lethal forms of violence.

I would feel bad. If someone punched him or stabbed him, or ran into him with a car. I would be up in arms about political violence.

But I draw the line at gun violence in the USA. I refuse to feel bad about that any more.

Again, I casually asked if his opinion on gun violence has changed. I posted the context for why I said that.

Only after being called out.

Nowhere did I or will I say he deserved what happened to him.

I don't seperate political violence from gun violence.

The USA, again, has come to the conclusion that they are okay with gun violence. Whether that be shooting up a Jason Aldean concert, a mall, a school, a church, or a political figure speaking on campus peacefully, if they have collectively have decided that is the price they are willing to pay then I'm just not going to feel bad when it happens.

I’ll leave you with what I already posted . For what it’s worth you are missing the point.

 

[Altair]

Only after being called out.

I’ll leave you with what I already posted . For what it’s worth you are missing the point.

I get your point. You want to box me into saying I feel bad about political violence.

To which I say, normally yes. When guns are involved and it's in the USA, no. And that's for any form of gun violence, not just political gun violence.

If that's agaisnt the rules, well, I guess some mod will ban me before too long.

 

[KevinB]

New rules for firearms on campus - @theU

In order to carry a firearm on campus, a person must obtain a Concealed Carry Permit (CCP) from the State of Utah.

attheu.utah.edu

Utah just allowed open carry weapons on campuses. You sure about that?

Mental Health issues - unfortunately the Venn diagram doesn't often intersect when people understand that with rights comes responsibilities.

While stabbing and running into people using vehicles are indeed potentially lethal, guns are the most efficient way for people to kill other people. When I served I was given a bayonet and trained how to use vehicles, but I did get the sense from the military as an organization that the best way I as an individual could kill another was with the c6, c7 and c9.

Explosives...

Violence still happens. But turns out, guns are still amongst the most lethal forms of violence.

I would feel bad. If someone punched him or stabbed him, or ran into him with a car. I would be up in arms about political violence.

But I draw the line at gun violence in the USA. I refuse to feel bad about that any more.

I feel sorry for you.

Again, I casually asked if his opinion on gun violence has changed. I posted the context for why I said that.

Still pretty awful thing to say given he'd been shot to death already.

Nowhere did I or will I say he deserved what happened to him.

I would take it as inferred. I mean I thought he was a horrible pice of shit, so he's not getting any tears from me, but that's just me, I do feel bad for his family however.

I don't seperate political violence from gun violence.

You should. (also it's separate).

The USA, again, has come to the conclusion that they are okay with gun violence. Whether that be shooting up a Jason Aldean concert, a mall, a school, a church, or a political figure speaking on campus peacefully, if they have collectively have decided that is the price they are willing to pay then I'm just not going to feel bad when it happens.

I think you are glossing over the issues.
Violence period is an issue when it is used against the innocent, regardless of its manner of delivery.
We have a lot of issues down here that can be compounded by firearms, but given a gun is an inanimate object, the issues is not really about guns, it is about crime, mental health and the political system that we have found ourself in.

 

[Lumber]

Reports coming in that he has died.

If I were a publicly known liberal pundit, I'd be scared right now, and very careful about what I say about this tragedy.

 

[brihard]

Looks like the suspect initially arrested was not the shooter. Gonna be an all hands on deck manhunt.

 

[Remius]

I get your point. You want to box me into saying I feel bad about political violence.

To which I say, normally yes. When guns are involved and it's in the USA, no. And that's for any form of gun violence, not just political gun violence.

If that's agaisnt the rules, well, I guess some mod will ban me before too long.

You’re doing a great job boxing yourself in without my help.

“normally yes”. So you have exceptions to what should be a consistent value when it comes to political violence.

Political violence is wrong. In all of its forms in western democracies. It’s not that hard.

I’m as jaded as you are that gun violence won’t be affected or dealt with in the US. I am absolutely horrified that they are reaching a point where political violence and assassinations are increasing and being seen as a solution.

They may be beyond fixing their gun problem but maybe they can still fix their political polarization problem.

 

[ArmyRick]

Political violence is wrong. In all of its forms in western democracies. It’s not that hard.

They may be beyond fixing their gun problem but maybe they can still fix their political polarization problem.

Not often, but sometimes we do agree on things.

 

[brihard]

I’m listening to Utah public safety scanner, they just kicked out a BOLO on a named and IDed suspect in a Toyota Corolla allegedly “going hospital to hospital looking for the victim”. Suspect Zachariah something. They have a DOB and a license plate. Possibly with a rifle case.

Scanner site: Utah County Public Safety Live Audio Feed

 

[dapaterson]

Sounds like a LDS name.

 

[brihard]

Yeah not sure how firm this is.

 

[Altair]

Mental Health issues - unfortunately the Venn diagram doesn't often intersect when people understand that with rights comes responsibilities.

You are acting like mental health only exists in the USA.

Other countries have people with mental health issues as well. We just don't allow them to have guns.

Explosives...

Hmmm, you're right. I wonder if there are some controls on that....

I feel sorry for you.

Thanks. I do appreciate it. I was hopeful after Sandy Hook, maybe America was ready. Nah. Was fully comfortable with a school full of kids being murdered in cold blood.

If that wasn't enough to move the needle, nothing was. And if that's the price America is willing to pay for the right to bear arms, then I respect their collective decision and will no longer waste my time feeling bad when this shit happens.

Still pretty awful thing to say given he'd been shot to death already.

Right...should I have waited? When was the good time to bring up his comments on him being okay with gun deaths as the price to pay for the second amendment?

I would take it as inferred. I mean I thought he was a horrible pice of shit, so he's not getting any tears from me, but that's just me, I do feel bad for his family however.

Nope. If Americans cared they would do something about it. Collectively, I refuse.

You should. (also it's separate).

I won't.

I think you are glossing over the issues.
Violence period is an issue when it is used against the innocent, regardless of its manner of delivery.
We have a lot of issues down here that can be compounded by firearms, but given a gun is an inanimate object, the issues is not really about guns, it is about crime, mental health and the political system that we have found ourself in.

Guns are an inanimate object. Very true. But they are a very powerful inanimate object. Their should be limits on who can carry them, where they can carry them, how easy it is to access them.

The Carl Gustav is an inanimate object, but the military didn't like it when someone misplaced one.

 

[Remius]

Sounds like a LDS name.

Utah…

 

[Altair]

You’re doing a great job boxing yourself in without my help.

“normally yes”. So you have exceptions to what should be a consistent value when it comes to political violence.

I believe in self defense. I also believe that someone shouldn't tie up someone and cut off body parts as part of self defense.

Turns out, there can be exceptions to things.

Political violence is wrong. In all of its forms in western democracies. It’s not that hard.

Sure. I agree. Political violence is bad. Never said it wasn't.

I just said that I don't care about what kind of violence is done at the barrel of a gun in the USA. Political, domestic, gang, school, I don't care.

I’m as jaded as you are that gun violence won’t be affected or dealt with in the US. I am absolutely horrified that they are reaching a point where political violence and assassinations are increasing and being seen as a solution.

They may be beyond fixing their gun problem but maybe they can still fix their political polarization problem.

You are acting like the USA is the only country with political polarization. Same as with mental health. Or violent video games

These things only exist in the USA?

No. These are mental gymnastics people use to avoid talking about the common thread.

 

[KevinB]

He was apparently shot by a rifle around 70m away in a nearby building.

 

[brihard]

Sounds like a LDS name.

If I caught the name right, I may have a matching LinkedIn profile for someone who went to Brigham Young University and has a few things that jump out. Not comfortable repeating it though.