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A Deeply Fractured US

I was watching some of the CBC coverage of Wyoming. It was fairly sad to see the folks there so caught up in Trumpism. But since Wyoming is the home of R-Calf (a Rancher group dedicated to stopping the importation of cattle from Canada and Mexico) I'm not surprised.
 
For the record.

Trump is not the cause.

Trump is the symptom.
 
Posted without comment

 
Posted without comment

Certainly posted without the context that this clip is an excerpt from a much longer speech warning about the dangers of misinformation, that has since been presented as some sort of instruction/endorsement of using misinformation.
 
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For the record.

Trump is not the cause.

Trump is the symptom.
100% correct, and in going after Trump so hard for so long the opposition has driven "reasonable" people deeper into the Trump camp.

Trump is a dumpster fire, but people went to him because they felt he represented their interests, or offered hope for better. When the media, and opposing politicians make broad statements about Trump Supporters as being _______, they catch a whole lot of reasonable people in their net.

The problem with that is, when someone openly challenges a person's beliefs, the person tends to react by becoming more entrenched in their beliefs. If a Trump supporter already kind of thought the media was in the pocket of out of touch elites, having the media attack their belief structure only causes them to dig in harder. It obviously goes the other way as well, the more Trump and supporters attack the other side, the more the other side becomes entrenched in their beliefs.

The scary thing in my mind is that the people in power know this, but are only concerned with winning the next election, so they keep doing things that harm the nation for short term benefit. It almost seems like they live in a separate world, and fail to recognize that stoking people's emotions about political differences isn't just "talk", it can(and has) lead to real world violence. My suspicion is that until politicians start getting injured because of political violence more than once every couple of years, they will not dial down the divisive rhetoric.
 
"Tonight, the nation marks the end of the Republican Party. What remains shares the name and branding of the traditional GOP, but is in fact an authoritarian nationalist cult dedicated only to Donald Trump"

She continues to whine that her sub-faction (people mostly influential during the GW Bush administration) is no longer particularly welcome among Republican voters, and that many Republican politicians have taken positions to match voter preferences.

The GOP drifted left when GHW Bush followed Reagan and drifted left some more when GW Bush followed Clinton. The latter period was the height of influence of neo-cons. Surveys by Pew Research Group revealed attitudes of Republican voters drifted left during that period, then subsequently drifted right during the Obama administration. Trump was the alternative to the GOP "establishment", especially the neo-con sub-faction of the "establishment". Voters chose Trump.

What has gotten up Cheney's nose is what I've commented on repeatedly: the neo-cons have been rejected by Republican voters. The Democratic party has moved much further left. The neo-cons have no home. They are defeated people wandering in a political wilderness. They don't want to play unless they can be in charge, to the point they've repeatedly and openly thrown their support behind Democrats.

Trump is the personification of their defeat, so he's their target. But their real beef is with Republican voters.
 
For the causes?

The case of the missing "W"s - 2001 - Clinton-Bush transition


Voting record of Washington DC

92.2% Biden
90.9% Clinton
90.9% Obama
92.5% Obama
89.2% Kerry
82.5% Gore

Same pattern all the way back to 1976. In fact DC has reliably voted Democrat since it was enfranchised in 1961.


...the vast majority of the 2.1 million–member federal workforce is composed of “career” civil servants, with legal protections that prevent them from being fired for political reasons....

...Just before the 2020 election, Trump issued an executive order reclassifying thousands of high-level federal workers as “Schedule F” employees, stripping them of the protections afforded career civil servants....

...But we should not view a return of Schedule F as something only Trump would consider. Before the realtor entered the political arena, conservatives wanted to kneecap the civil service.

In January 2001, the right-wing Heritage Foundation issued a policy paper, “Taking Charge of Federal Personnel,” which warned the incoming George W. Bush administration of the “political sophistication of the federal employee network and its allies and the intensity of its resistance to serious change.” It recommended that Bush “make liberal use of his power of appointment [and] get a loyal team in place to carry out his agenda.”

One of the three authors, George Nesterczuk, became a personnel policy adviser in the Bush administration. Trump tapped him in 2017 to preside over the entire civil service as the director of the Office of Personnel Management, but opposition delayed his nomination, and Nesterczuk withdrew. In 2020, Trump hired Nesterczuk as an OPM adviser six months before the issuance of Schedule F. Another of the Heritage paper authors, Donald Devine, was OPM director under Ronald Reagan and served as an OPM adviser under Trump. Neither man was mentioned in the second installment of the Axios report, which tracked the origins of Schedule F, and largely credited Sherk. But Sherk is also a Heritage Foundation alumnus.

The Heritage report derided the “Progressive ideal” of a “public administration or scientific management model” of the civil service, which it defined as “a value-free ‘scientific’ program of government administration, based on objective management and policy principles, which is technically administered by neutral career public officials.” Instead, it encouraged using “the cabinet government or political administration model,” in which “top political officials” are responsible “for achievement of the President’s election-endorsed and value-defined program,” pushing it “throughout the labyrinth of a bureaucracy that is often resistant to change.”

Defined as such, the Heritage viewpoint sounds reasonable. Why should unelected bureaucrats have more power to shape policy than an elected president?...


Hard to assemble a team when you're playing away and you only have the other guy's farm teams to choose from.
 
100% correct, and in going after Trump so hard for so long the opposition has driven "reasonable" people deeper into the Trump camp.

Trump is a dumpster fire, but people went to him because they felt he represented their interests, or offered hope for better. When the media, and opposing politicians make broad statements about Trump Supporters as being _______, they catch a whole lot of reasonable people in their net.

The problem with that is, when someone openly challenges a person's beliefs, the person tends to react by becoming more entrenched in their beliefs. If a Trump supporter already kind of thought the media was in the pocket of out of touch elites, having the media attack their belief structure only causes them to dig in harder. It obviously goes the other way as well, the more Trump and supporters attack the other side, the more the other side becomes entrenched in their beliefs.

The scary thing in my mind is that the people in power know this, but are only concerned with winning the next election, so they keep doing things that harm the nation for short term benefit. It almost seems like they live in a separate world, and fail to recognize that stoking people's emotions about political differences isn't just "talk", it can(and has) lead to real world violence. My suspicion is that until politicians start getting injured because of political violence more than once every couple of years, they will not dial down the divisive rhetoric.
It's hard for us in the middle to see how a "reasonable" person could be driven to a "dumpster fire" unless maybe, just maybe they aren't all that reasonable to begin with.

There is very little going on in the way of challenging GOP beliefs. The challenge is as against Trump as being entirely unsuitable to leading anything important and especially not the country. Even within the GOP there is at least an even view on the prime divisive issues of homosexual marriage, abortion and other religion-based restrictions. Beyond that there is in fact much common ground amongst Democrats and Republicans when one looks deep enough.

I'm sorry. I think the real problem within the GOP is the fact that so many "reasonable" GOP politicians support and echo the Trump nonsense because they feel that if they do not cater to the core Trumpists, their own political futures are insecure. The only way this spiral will ever stop is if "reasonable" Republicans were to find a solid and "reasonable" candidate who would be electable in the country. And therein lies the real rub. Democrats outnumber Republicans across the country. In many places a "reasonable" Republican is not electable without massive jigging of electoral votes and without galvanizing the far-right fringe. The GOP is fighting for survival. It will do anything to gain or stay in power. "Reasonable" Republicans are being dragged along or frightened into going along.

$0.02
 
It's become a self-licking ice-cream cone.

He's provided a perpetuating method to the madness.

😖
I'd liken the situation to stress and a stress induced bleeding ulcer. Yes one is a symptom of the other, but without treatment that symptom can/will kill you.
 
Maybe not the cause, but certainly a catalyst who is accelerating the deflagration.
I'd agree with that.

Ignition.
Fuel.
Oxygen.

I couldn't pinpoint the ignition.
Trump is more akin to oxygen.
There is lots of fuel.

How do we separate the fire from the fuel?
 
Halon extinguishers: breaks the interaction of all three elements to form the chemical reaction of oxydation (i.e. fire).

;)
haha I was going to reply with AFFF (which for folks unfamiliar with it creates a foam blanket on a fuel that prevents the fuel from turning into a flammable vapour and smothers the fire).


Totally off topic, but after using halon for however many years now (50? 70?) no one is still sure how it actually interrupts the chemical reaction, but someone has proposed how that works. They are far smarter than I am so couldn't follow it, but other equally smart people with comparable decades of expertise seemed to agree that it's feasible. One of those things where it happens so fast we just can't detect anything, but an interesting problem to solve as it's the only fire suppression agent that works like that which we know of.

Because of that mechanism though it basically extinguishes a fire instantly, and seeing it blow through a compartment in slow mo you can see the pressure wave expanding outward from the nozzle, so pretty cool. As long as the space is reasonably air tight, you just need to sit back and let things cool down first so the fire doesn't reflash when you open the door (and halon escapes).

If I could create my own forever job live fire testing would definitely be it; fun what you can do when you call it science.
 
It's hard for us in the middle to see how a "reasonable" person could be driven to a "dumpster fire" unless maybe, just maybe they aren't all that reasonable to begin with.

There is very little going on in the way of challenging GOP beliefs. The challenge is as against Trump as being entirely unsuitable to leading anything important and especially not the country. Even within the GOP there is at least an even view on the prime divisive issues of homosexual marriage, abortion and other religion-based restrictions. Beyond that there is in fact much common ground amongst Democrats and Republicans when one looks deep enough.

I'm sorry. I think the real problem within the GOP is the fact that so many "reasonable" GOP politicians support and echo the Trump nonsense because they feel that if they do not cater to the core Trumpists, their own political futures are insecure. The only way this spiral will ever stop is if "reasonable" Republicans were to find a solid and "reasonable" candidate who would be electable in the country. And therein lies the real rub. Democrats outnumber Republicans across the country. In many places a "reasonable" Republican is not electable without massive jigging of electoral votes and without galvanizing the far-right fringe. The GOP is fighting for survival. It will do anything to gain or stay in power. "Reasonable" Republicans are being dragged along or frightened into going along.

$0.02

So 46% of voters are unreasonable? I think it's far more likely that people are rallying behind their team because the attacks against them have made it near impossible for them to see the other team as anything but enemies.

Personally I don't care enough to get into the deep dive on numbers, voting districts, etc.. My point is, attacking the "others" only results in them becoming more entrenched in their beliefs(team). If you want to convince people that your side has better beliefs you need to do it by extending an olive branch, and reasoning with people. It takes time, and you're going to get verbally attacked while doing it by both sides, as the extreme elements of your own team will consider you a traitor.

The alternative to reasoning with people is a continual downward spiral toward violence...
 
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