A Deeply Fractured US

[Spencer100]

It's hard for us in the middle to see how a "reasonable" person could be driven to a "dumpster fire" unless maybe, just maybe they aren't all that reasonable to begin with.

There is very little going on in the way of challenging GOP beliefs. The challenge is as against Trump as being entirely unsuitable to leading anything important and especially not the country. Even within the GOP there is at least an even view on the prime divisive issues of homosexual marriage, abortion and other religion-based restrictions. Beyond that there is in fact much common ground amongst Democrats and Republicans when one looks deep enough.

I'm sorry. I think the real problem within the GOP is the fact that so many "reasonable" GOP politicians support and echo the Trump nonsense because they feel that if they do not cater to the core Trumpists, their own political futures are insecure. The only way this spiral will ever stop is if "reasonable" Republicans were to find a solid and "reasonable" candidate who would be electable in the country. And therein lies the real rub. Democrats outnumber Republicans across the country. In many places a "reasonable" Republican is not electable without massive jigging of electoral votes and without galvanizing the far-right fringe. The GOP is fighting for survival. It will do anything to gain or stay in power. "Reasonable" Republicans are being dragged along or frightened into going along.

$0.02

Ok. But its so much more than that. Its 50 years never ending moves to left and culture wars. Of hearing conservatives and even just regular joes are the terrible people, the Neanderthals and every issue though the lens of identity politics. The movement left and politics in general is never a pendulum its a ratchet.

Many GOP and others are very tired of being "reasonable"
There is a large under reported movement going on and Trump is seen as a person that can do something. "drain" the swamp" is a real thing. in their minds.

 

[KevinB]

So the bitter clingers and deplorables heard what their betters said, and reacted. Which side started that fire?

Does it even matter anymore?

My issue with President Biden is he ran on a platform of inclusion and unity -- something his presidency really hasn't done well on.
Which quite honestly just adds fuel to the Trump Dumpster Fire.

 

[Kirkhill]

Does it even matter anymore?

My issue with President Biden is he ran on a platform of inclusion and unity -- something his presidency really hasn't done well on.
Which quite honestly just adds fuel to the Trump Dumpster Fire.

Kevin, I want to agree with you - and in large I do agree with you.

But phrases like Trump Dumpster Fire, I have to admit, raise my hackles. I appreciate that it is considered fair comment, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Nor does it make it any easier for me to engage in considered debate.

 

[FJAG]

So 46% of voters are unreasonable? I think it's far more likely that people are rallying behind their team because the attacks against them have made it near impossible for them to see the other team as anything but enemies.

I didn't quite say that. What I said is that people who feel driven to follow a "dumpster fire" may not be that reasonable. In your defensiveness you are not adequately addressing why reasonable people will follow a dumpster fire. And let me be clear, I am a conservative. In the US I would probably have been a Republican just as I spent most of my adult life as a Conservative here. The direction that the GOP has taken over the last thirty years or so, just as the CPC seems to be heading towards, I find repugnant. For the record, I find the left wing neo-woke to be equally repugnant for exactly the same reasons ... trying to inflict their respective extremist social conservative or extremist liberal agendas on everyone.

So maybe I should revise what I said. If 46% of the electorate is so wrapped up in the me and them fight and the win at all costs agenda that rather than try to find a reasonable leader within their own party, that they continue to support an individual who is a clear and present danger to the American Republic, well, then those 46% are unreasonable.

Ok. But its so much more than that. Its 50 years never ending moves to left and culture wars. Of hearing conservatives and even just regular joes are the terrible people, the Neanderthals and every issue though the lens of identity politics. The movement left and politics in general is never a pendulum its a ratchet.

Many GOP and others are very tired of being "reasonable"
There is a large under reported movement going on and Trump is seen as a person that can do something. "drain" the swamp" is a real thing. in their minds.

The problem here is that there are extreme elements to both sides of the political spectrum. The tragedy is that both sides paint all their opponents with the same brush as those extreme elements. That is, unfortunately the progression of a two party system - its either "us" or "them". The large moderate middle is told to choose.

So far, only one side has put forward a Trump. I honestly do not think that there is a "large under reported movement". There is, however, a significant vocal movement that doesn't care about the second or third order effects that their words or actions will have on the country as whole.

The concept of "draining the swamp" is just stupid from the get-go. There is no swamp. The swamp is just a convenient target to rouse the rabble against. American governments change at frequent intervals. They have all had a hand in filling the swamp with their own denizens and have had frequent opportunities to clean things up over the last 240 some years. Trump's four years accomplished absolutely nothing of value vis a vis swamp draining. It's hard to understand that anyone can still believe that the man has any talents to accomplish something positive in that area.

$0.02

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Apparently Judge Bruce Reinhart, the same judge that approved the search warrant for Mar-A-Logo will tomorrow (Thursday) at 1300 will hold a hearing about unsealing the affidavit that was used to justify the search.

More to follow.

 

[brihard]

Apparently Judge Bruce Reinhart, the same judge that approved the search warrant for Mar-A-Logo will tomorrow (Thursday) at 1300 will hold a hearing about unsealing the affidavit that was used to justify the search.

More to follow.

Yup, commented on this yesterday. I predict the affidavit will stay sealed as is generally the case when an investigation remains ongoing.

Back on the subject of Trump’s Document Stash: there will be a hearing on Thursday in which the judge who granted the warrant will hear arguments for and against the release of the affidavit outlining the grounds for the search. A variety of news agencies and organizations have filed motions for the release of the affidavit.

Federal judge sets hearing on motion to unseal Trump search warrant affidavit

U.S. Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart, who approved the warrant for the FBI to search the former president’s Mar-a-Lago estate, has scheduled a Thursday hearing on a motion to unseal the affidavit that prosecutors used to secure it.

news.yahoo.com

DOJ has already filed a 13 page omnibus response objecting to the various motions. Grounds for objection include protecting ongoing investigative steps, protecting the identifies/willingness of person or persons who are cooperating or might in future, and (this is significant) protecting the integrity of ongoing Grand Jury proceedings. The brief is an interesting read for anyone who wants more insight into the considerations that go into dealing investigative materials before an indictment.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.617854/gov.uscourts.flsd.617854.59.0_12.pdf

This is all pretty much in line with what I laid out in recent days. Given the strength of the written brief by DOJ, the judge is being pretty solicitous to the movants in granting an in person hearing.

My prediction, if anyone cares, is that the motions will not be granted and that the affidavit will be ordered to remain sealed by the issuing judge. We may see a bit of a legal sideshow where some party or parties appeal that to a higher court, but it should be a no brainer to keep it sealed at this point.

With a lot of evidence to examine and statements to quietly take, this may slow down and go quiet between now and the midterms. DOJ doesn’t like open investigative activities that could have a political impact when elections are approaching. We also don’t know if this investigation is being synced at all with the federal January 6th criminal investigations.

 

[Kirkhill]

100% of the people are offered a choice between Trump and Clinton.

40% of the people say a pox on both your houses and sit out the elections - as they have for generations.

60% of the people take a chance.

A chunk, after 8 years of Clinton, 8 years of Bush and 8 years of Obama figure they have seen enough of the Clinton movie and want something else.

Democrats of that ilk reached out for Bernie - and were denied. They turned their back on Hilary and the party that finagled their system to toss Bernie. They stayed home.

The Donald made his play. He attracted some Republicans, some Bernie supporters and some of the non-voting 40% and put together his own team of outsiders.

And frightened the bejasus out of The Establishment of both parties. To the amusement of the deplorables.

My career in the US has been everywhere but the beltway. A good chunk of my time has been spent in factories built by tradesmen - a lot of them have had biker tattoos, scars and have had criminal histories. They, like the operators and plant personnel were mixes of rednecks and immigrants. The crews were Latinos and Latinas, Vietnamese, Philippinos, Guatemalans and Hondurans and said rednecks with the occasional black - more of them on the Gulf Coast. The technical staff, like myself, came from all over the world. Management were Americans, Norwegians, Japanese and Eskimo (that is how they define themselves). In my time working in that environment I can honestly say I was never aware of any expression of racism or classism. People were evaluated on their abilities and how they fit into the company.

That is not to say that there wasn't violence. Filleting knives had to be checked and I know of at least two incidents with blood on the floors of the barracks. The Philippinos and the Guatemalans had words in one of the cases.

The point...

The places where these mixed communities worked were not notably political - but I can say that Hilary and her husband were not held in very high regard. On the other hand Trump signs started to show up in the back country long before he became a punch line in the New York Times.

I can't speak to all of the States. But I am much more comfortable in flyover country than I am in any of the major cities. I find I am far less likely to be harangued by a pastor and his congregation than I am by a environmental zealot and his woke acolytes.

As Edward is at pains to point out - there are extremes on both sides. And there is nothing to choose between them.


People outside of the urban centers live a very different life than those in those towns. And they are largely content with their lives - as long as they are left alone to sort out their problems themselves.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I find it intriguing that so many people can attack, and think they are smarter than millions and millions of voters, in another country, with unique problems and a population 10 times our own. That they are the only ones in the world that have a handle on US politics. Not those in the party, not those that live it daily, not those that have spent time campaigning and working for the citizens. For people in Canada to get so wrapped around the axle about Trump, et al, while completely, purposely, naively ignoring the state of our own country, economy, military, politicians and how we are seen on the world stage, is somewhat mystifying. While we are tied in so many ways to the US, we are not them. We have our own shit to sort out, before we try fixing another country. But that's the typical Canadian isn't it. Lecture everyone while we're the biggest offenders.

You talk about dumpster fires and Trump. What is that, that is currently in charge of the WH right now? There's your dumpster fire. A POTUS that is not in control of the country or his own mind or body. The senate and house hardly listen to him unless he's helping push their agenda. Who's running the US? Not the person they elected, that's for sure. Insider trading, not applying the law to protect SCOTUS justices, flat out lying about stats, open borders. And it's never ending. One scandal after another. We haven't even touched the deep state that's hiding hunter's laptop and epstein's client list. An FBI that's been proven as rogue, inept and conspiratory. They tried to take down a sitting president. CIA, DOJ, NSA can't be trusted. Who will all the new IRS auditors be checking? All under the democrats and a biased MSM. Trump had zero to do with it, except for being the victim of a closed shop that didn't think an outsider would dare challenge the established status quo.

Kevin lives there. He's as close to an expert that we have here, everything else is opinion until proven otherwise. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Same with unsubstantiated opinion.

Speaking of, this is mine. My opinion. And as such, I am open to change. It's just that there's been no compelling evidence to the contrary for me to change it right now.

 

[KevinB]

Honestly my biggest issues with Trump is he didn’t drain the swamp.
He just parked some folks over it.
He made his own Dumpster fire - which is just as toxic as the sludge in the Swamp and the current cadaver sitting in office.

What we really need is the RNC and DNC to be nuked from orbit and start over based on actual merit.

 

[mariomike]

Democrats outnumber Republicans across the country. In many places a "reasonable" Republican is not electable without massive jigging of electoral votes and without galvanizing the far-right fringe. The GOP is fighting for survival. It will do anything to gain or stay in power. "Reasonable" Republicans are being dragged along or frightened into going along.

We have family there. Hopefully the situation will improve.

 

[lenaitch]

I find it intriguing that so many people can attack, and think they are smarter than millions and millions of voters, in another country, with unique problems and a population 10 times our own. That they are the only ones in the world that have a handle on US politics. Not those in the party, not those that live it daily, not those that have spent time campaigning and working for the citizens. For people in Canada to get so wrapped around the axle about Trump, et al, while completely, purposely, naively ignoring the state of our own country, economy, military, politicians and how we are seen on the world stage, is somewhat mystifying. While we are tied in so many ways to the US, we are not them. We have our own shit to sort out, before we try fixing another country. But that's the typical Canadian isn't it. Lecture everyone while we're the biggest offenders.

You talk about dumpster fires and Trump. What is that, that is currently in charge of the WH right now? There's your dumpster fire. A POTUS that is not in control of the country or his own mind or body. The senate and house hardly listen to him unless he's helping push their agenda. Who's running the US? Not the person they elected, that's for sure. Insider trading, not applying the law to protect SCOTUS justices, flat out lying about stats, open borders. And it's never ending. One scandal after another. We haven't even touched the deep state that's hiding hunter's laptop and epstein's client list. An FBI that's been proven as rogue, inept and conspiratory. They tried to take down a sitting president. CIA, DOJ, NSA can't be trusted. Who will all the new IRS auditors be checking? All under the democrats and a biased MSM. Trump had zero to do with it, except for being the victim of a closed shop that didn't think an outsider would dare challenge the established status quo.

Kevin lives there. He's as close to an expert that we have here, everything else is opinion until proven otherwise. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Same with unsubstantiated opinion.

Speaking of, this is mine. My opinion. And as such, I am open to change. It's just that there's been no compelling evidence to the contrary for me to change it right now.

So . . . your first paragraph calls out we non-residents for passing judgement on the political goings-on of a foreign land, and your second paragraph does just that.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I think part of the problem of trying to reason with some people on both extremes on each side is that they are just so far off the paved road it's somewhat futile. How do you argue with someone that thinks something like Sandy Hook shooting was faked, or that all cops are inherently bad, especially when most 'communication' is via 10 second soundbites or 128 characters at a time?

Seems like the people pushing the fringe narratives are largely opportunistic grifters anyway vice real believers, so it's a bit more like a political bent on the old religious tv evangelists. Similarly a lot of the politicians are riding the vocal minority to power by pushing agendas they don't actually believe (although some of them may legitimately, which is scary as well). Which probably explains a lot of the people that want nothing to do with it, as it's inherently disconnected from reality.

Trump has been a greasy bastard since the 90s though and it's really hard to think he was there for anything but his own personal gain and lust for power when he used every opportunity to line his own pockets. I think if he could have gotten in the office on a DNC ticket he would have done that too. If he'd actually gone in there and done anything I'd still respect his achievements despite finding him a gross human being, but I can't think of anything he actually did to leave things better than he found them; he just pushed some of the existing power brokers out of the way to abuse the system for his own personal gain.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The thing about pocket lining is that if you're not standing in one of the two bubbles, you notice that they all do it.

 

[FJAG]

We have family there. Hopefully the situation will improve.

Me too. I'm quite fond of America and Americans in general and I do hope they get through this dark spot.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Here it is...

 

[Blackadder1916]

Trump has been a greasy bastard since the 90s 70s though and it's really hard to think he was there for anything but his own personal gain . . .

FTFY

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

The poster and the person quoted prove the meme above....

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I think part of the problem of trying to reason with some people on both extremes on each side is that they are just so far off the paved road it's somewhat futile. How do you argue with someone that thinks something like Sandy Hook shooting was faked, or that all cops are inherently bad, especially when most 'communication' is via 10 second soundbites or 128 characters at a time?

Seems like the people pushing the fringe narratives are largely opportunistic grifters anyway vice real believers, so it's a bit more like a political bent on the old religious tv evangelists. Similarly a lot of the politicians are riding the vocal minority to power by pushing agendas they don't actually believe (although some of them may legitimately, which is scary as well). Which probably explains a lot of the people that want nothing to do with it, as it's inherently disconnected from reality.

Trump has been a greasy bastard since the 90s though and it's really hard to think he was there for anything but his own personal gain and lust for power when he used every opportunity to line his own pockets. I think if he could have gotten in the office on a DNC ticket he would have done that too. If he'd actually gone in there and done anything I'd still respect his achievements despite finding him a gross human being, but I can't think of anything he actually did to leave things better than he found them; he just pushed some of the existing power brokers out of the way to abuse the system for his own personal gain.

Same can be said for;
Pelosi
Schumer
Nadler
Schiff
Fauchi
Harris
Biden
and a whole hockey sock full of other democrats.
Talk about your greasy bastards.
Yeah and there's republicans in there also. Cheney for one.
Trump did it to line his pockets, yet he never took a wage as POTUS.

Trump doesn't have a lock on greasy in Washington.
Trump didn't do anything to make things better? There is millions upon millions of people that were directly affected by his decisions and they love him for what he did. They walk the walk. Not just talk the talk of the democrat detractors and people that hate Trump so bad that they get apoplectic at the mere mention of his name.
I'm sorry, I don't agree with your opinion.

 

[Infanteer]

TDS-DS makes for epic whataboutism.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Talk about your greasy bastards.

I keep repeating this over and over and over and....

Get used to it, read this thread and all the things these folks have been called, and that's by a forum of internet-sane people.

What decent person will ever put themselves, but especially their family, through the meat grinder that is politics these days?
I sure wouldn't.........