A Deeply Fractured US

[Altair]

So the "freedom convoy" should have been shot?

That version of honking and obstruction was freedom.

 

[Remius]

You should take your argument up with Andrew McCarthy.

One thing is for certain: confronting and harassing LEO who are in the execution of their duties (whether you agree with that or not) will likely end badly for you one way or the other.

Apparently it depends on your politics if it ends badly or not. Plenty of Jan 6ers were pardoned for doing exactly what you describe and you seemed to be all for that at the time as I recall.

 

[QV]

F**k Off QV. He shot her 3 times in the face!!

He was in self-proclaim danger because he is a moron.

I fully expect to be censured for the swear word, but for the love of god QV, you cannot be this obtuse!

You could take your argument up with Andrew McCarthy.

 

[QV]

So the "freedom convoy" should have been shot?

No. Not generally. But if anyone of them were about to potentially run over an LEO - yes.

 

[QV]

Apparently it depends on your politics if it ends badly or not. Plenty of Jan 6ers were pardoned for doing exactly what you describe and you seemed to be all for that at the time as I recall.

They were also hunted down and arrested. I believe only Babbitt was shot (for dubious reasons) - I don't think she presented an imminent death or grievous harm threat. But I wasn't there and the officer has been cleared.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

But a person was murdered for Christ sakes!!!

A person was shot and killed.

I think it's a little early to say it was murder.

 

[Altair]

A person was shot and killed.

I think it's a little early to say it was murder.

I'm talking a break from the Internet today.

When Fishbone Jones is the voice of reason I don't know what to do with myself.

 

[FSTO]

A person was shot and killed.

I think it's a little early to say it was murder.

Sorry Fishbone, but that was second degree murder.

Difference Between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd-Degree Murders? | Manshoory Law

What is the difference between 1st and 2nd-degree murders compared to 3rd-degree murder? This article will help you cover all of the types of murders.

manshoorylaw.com

Second Degree Murder​

2nd-degree murder or second-degree manslaughter is still a very serious crime but is a step down in severity when compared to the 1st degree. In general terms, a 2nd-degree murder is one that doesn’t have any kind of premeditation and may only have been intended to cause harm, rather than death.

• Intentional Killings Without Premeditation

One of the defining aspects of a second-degree manslaughter or murder charge is that there isn’t any sort of plan or premeditation on behalf of the killer. Even if they intend to kill someone at the moment of the crime, it may simply occur in the heat of the moment and isn’t something that they planned out in advance.
According to VP Vance he likely had a hair trigger to begin with. That in no way absolves him of the crime.

• Intent to Cause Only Serious Bodily Harm

This is another factor that might define second-degree murder. The defendant might not have actually intended to kill their victim. Instead, they may have only had the intent to cause serious bodily harm.
Did he intend to shoot her when he left his vehicle no, but it was not accidental either.

• Extreme Indifference to Human Life

Another type of second-degree murder is when a victim dies because the defendant showed an extreme level of indifference for their life.
When he said "F**king B**tch after he pumped three bullets into her, walked over to the car and glanced at the dead body and provided no aid, and then followed up with a circling of the finger over his head as if to say, "We're done here, lets GTFO!" That is the definition of indifference to human life.

 

[suffolkowner]

Andrew McCarthy, former Assistant US Attorney and no friend of Trump or the current ICE leadership, writes about the ICE shooting here:

A Tragedy, but a Justified Use of Force | National Review

The legal issue is whether the ICE agent reasonably perceived a dangerous threat, not immigration enforcement policy or commonsense compassion for Renee Good.

www.nationalreview.com

....But no matter where you come out on all of that — and regardless of whether you believe Renee Good’s death resulted from either her poor decision-making in gratuitously courting danger, or Trump’s excessive zeal in ramping up immigration enforcement — the legal case comes down to whether the agent reasonably perceived a potentially lethal threat.

From what we have seen so far, he did.

Good wasn't murdered by anyone. But she almost got an LEO.

Murder must be condemned, shootings in self defence are tragic but necessary. That is the difference.

how does that address Barnes v. Felix, issued in May 2025 US Supreme Court decision on officer created jeopardy?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Sorry Fishbone, but that was second degree murder.

Difference Between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd-Degree Murders? | Manshoory Law

What is the difference between 1st and 2nd-degree murders compared to 3rd-degree murder? This article will help you cover all of the types of murders.

manshoorylaw.com

Second Degree Murder​

2nd-degree murder or second-degree manslaughter is still a very serious crime but is a step down in severity when compared to the 1st degree. In general terms, a 2nd-degree murder is one that doesn’t have any kind of premeditation and may only have been intended to cause harm, rather than death.

• Intentional Killings Without Premeditation

One of the defining aspects of a second-degree manslaughter or murder charge is that there isn’t any sort of plan or premeditation on behalf of the killer. Even if they intend to kill someone at the moment of the crime, it may simply occur in the heat of the moment and isn’t something that they planned out in advance.
According to VP Vance he likely had a hair trigger to begin with. That in no way absolves him of the crime.

• Intent to Cause Only Serious Bodily Harm

This is another factor that might define second-degree murder. The defendant might not have actually intended to kill their victim. Instead, they may have only had the intent to cause serious bodily harm.
Did he intend to shoot her when he left his vehicle no, but it was not accidental either.

• Extreme Indifference to Human Life

Another type of second-degree murder is when a victim dies because the defendant showed an extreme level of indifference for their life.
When he said "F**king B**tch after he pumped three bullets into her, walked over to the car and glanced at the dead body and provided no aid, and then followed up with a circling of the finger over his head as if to say, "We're done here, lets GTFO!" That is the definition of indifference to human life.

OK, we'll agree to disagree shall we? I'm not ready to melt the tar yet.

 

[Genetk44]

You should take your argument up with Andrew McCarthy.

One thing is for certain: confronting and harassing LEO who are in the execution of their duties (whether you agree with that or not) will likely end badly for you one way or the other.

So you feel that a woman trying to leave the area should be shot 3 times in the face…got it!

 

[Jarnhamar]

There is vide with an view from an elevated position down the street, where I can see he probably thought she was trying to run him down because she does strike him wither her vehicle and he seems to slide down the driver side making the shots.

I dunno.

What I do know is as tensions rise I don't expect to less and less of these.

You should take your argument up with Andrew McCarthy.

One thing is for certain: confronting and harassing LEO who are in the execution of their duties (whether you agree with that or not) will likely end badly for you one way or the other.

A couple few years ago I was doing work up training for Bosnia and we were given an example about rules of engagement.

The story went that there were 3 British soldiers on a check point and a car raced toward them. They all opened fire. One of the soldiers stopped shooting as the vehicle passed them, the other 2 continued to shoot. We were told the the one soldier who stopped shooting didn't get in trouble but the two soldiers who continued to shoot once yhe car was passed them were charged (murder or attempted murder or some such thing).

I'm not sure if that reqlly happened but the lesson stuck with me.

I've listened to some LEO debates on this shooting and some are claiming there is a separation between the officer shooting her through the windshield and shooting her through the passenger window. Other LEOs are saying the shootings will be viewed as one incident and 2 separate engagements.

 

[QV]

A couple few years ago I was doing work up training for Bosnia and we were given an example about rules of engagement.

The story went that there were 3 British soldiers on a check point and a car raced toward them. They all opened fire. One of the soldiers stopped shooting as the vehicle passed them, the other 2 continued to shoot. We were told the the one soldier who stopped shooting didn't get in trouble but the two soldiers who continued to shoot once yhe car was passed them were charged (murder or attempted murder or some such thing).

I'm not sure if that reqlly happened but the lesson stuck with me.

I've listened to some LEO debates on this shooting and some are claiming there is a separation between the officer shooting her through the windshield and shooting her through the passenger window. Other LEOs are saying the shootings will be viewed as one incident and 2 separate engagements.

Yeah. I'm not going to get too deep into arguing this one way or another - I don't have the interest or inclination to follow it close enough to do that.

Amidst the pitch forks, I thought it relevant to point out that even a Trump hating former Assistant US Attorney has said, so far, it looks like self defense.

 

[OldSolduer]

A couple few years ago I was doing work up training for Bosnia and we were given an example about rules of engagement.

The story went that there were 3 British soldiers on a check point and a car raced toward them. They all opened fire. One of the soldiers stopped shooting as the vehicle passed them, the other 2 continued to shoot. We were told the the one soldier who stopped shooting didn't get in trouble but the two soldiers who continued to shoot once yhe car was passed them were charged (murder or attempted murder or some such thing).

I'm not sure if that reqlly happened but the lesson stuck with me.

I've listened to some LEO debates on this shooting and some are claiming there is a separation between the officer shooting her through the windshield and shooting her through the passenger window. Other LEOs are saying the shootings will be viewed as one incident and 2 separate engagements.

Back in the days of yore the rule was engage the target until they were no longer a threat. That is up to interpretation and the context of what sore of environment you're in.

 

[QV]

Back in the days of yore the rule was engage the target until they were no longer a threat. That is up to interpretation and the context of what sore of environment you're in.

These debates always get spicy. Maybe they are doing the "move" portion of "fire & movement"?

 

[Halifax Tar]

A couple few years ago I was doing work up training for Bosnia and we were given an example about rules of engagement.

The story went that there were 3 British soldiers on a check point and a car raced toward them. They all opened fire. One of the soldiers stopped shooting as the vehicle passed them, the other 2 continued to shoot. We were told the the one soldier who stopped shooting didn't get in trouble but the two soldiers who continued to shoot once yhe car was passed them were charged (murder or attempted murder or some such thing).

I'm not sure if that reqlly happened but the lesson stuck with me.

I've listened to some LEO debates on this shooting and some are claiming there is a separation between the officer shooting her through the windshield and shooting her through the passenger window. Other LEOs are saying the shootings will be viewed as one incident and 2 separate engagements.

My distrust and dislike for LEOs is pretty well documented on these means.

But I will admit that it's really easy to watch a bunch of videos after the event tell someone what they should have done instead.

And I don't think people can disconnect their personal politics from issues like this.

Sadly as I said before I don't expect this will be last time...

 

[OldSolduer]

These debates always get spicy. Maybe they are doing the "move" portion of "fire & movement"?

In the Cold War era in an all out war we were trained to shoot them til they stopped, whether they were running away or not.

As for UN ROE in Cyprus I like to make the joke "you better have a sucking chest wound before you load your weapon".

UNPROFOR changed all that.

 

[Good2Golf]

Trump is unhappy that the CEO of Exxon apparently called Venezuela “uninvestable” when he summoned oil execs to meet last week regarding the future of Venezuela’s oil industry. In consequence, he may exclude Exxon from this investment opportunity.

Trump says he might keep Exxon out of Venezuela after CEO called it 'uninvestable'

Exxon CEO Darren Woods told Trump that Venezuela would need to change its laws.

www.reuters.com

Halliburton CEO sitting beside Trump when he told him tha they pulled out of Venezuela back in 2019. Trumps asks, “why did you pull out?” Halliburton CEO pauses for a moment, then diplomatically says, “because of the sanctions…”

Perhaps learning from the USMCA “We have to fix it. Whoever did this didn’t know what they were doing!” facepalm-worthy forgetting his own policy, Trump didn’t pursue “sanctions from who?”

 

[PPCLI Guy]

A couple few years ago I was doing work up training for Bosnia and we were given an example about rules of engagement.

The story went that there were 3 British soldiers on a check point and a car raced toward them. They all opened fire. One of the soldiers stopped shooting as the vehicle passed them, the other 2 continued to shoot. We were told the the one soldier who stopped shooting didn't get in trouble but the two soldiers who continued to shoot once yhe car was passed them were charged (murder or attempted murder or some such thing).

I'm not sure if that reqlly happened but the lesson stuck with me.

I've listened to some LEO debates on this shooting and some are claiming there is a separation between the officer shooting her through the windshield and shooting her through the passenger window. Other LEOs are saying the shootings will be viewed as one incident and 2 separate engagements.

I ran the Bosnia Training Advisory Team (1 RGJ less the CO) in the UK preparing a BG (Royal Horseguards) to head over there as part of IFOR) and we ran lots of ROE scenarios, but I found that the NITAT (Northern Ireland) scenarios and TTPs to be less than fully pertinent. I attended said training about 6-8 months later as 1 RGJ prepped to deploy as part of SFOR and I found that the ROE scenarios had been updated - the sign of a learning organisation.

 

[mariomike]

Won't even let ICE enjoy a peaceful restroom break.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2010444145597509814