Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020

[mariomike]

No doubt things are more structured now, and everybody is more liability conscious, but 'back in the day', 50 miles down the highway from a small town hospital, we used common sense and experience to tell us that a guy embedded in the grill of a Kenworth, or a bush worker who fell on his chainsaw probably warranted the coroner attending.

This was our SOP,

Obviously Dead means death has occurred if gross signs of death are obvious, including by reason of:

1. decapitation, transection, visible decomposition, putrefaction; or

2. absence of vital signs and:
a. a grossly charred body;
b. an open head or torso wound with gross outpouring of cranial or visceral contents;
c. gross rigor mortis (i.e. limbs and/or body stiff, posturing of limbs or body); or
d. dependent lividity (i.e. fixed, non-blanching purple or black discolouration of skin in dependent area of body).

Also, Public Place has to be taken into consideration. I can't rememember the exact wording, but something public decency.

Above all else, keep the subways running.

With a Mass Casualty Incident ( MCI ) - as in this thread - you get into Field Trama Triage ( FTT ).

 

[Haggis]

The RCMP are not a transparent organization and they resist attempts to turn into one. That's not just my uneducated opinion, that's from the previous head of the civilian watchdog organization that investigates the police. The RCMP (as an organization) go out of their way to not be transparent.

This is the same with most large organizations. How many times in the CAF have you heard "don't embarrass the family"?

An inquiry into this shooting was pushed back against from the start. "We don't need one". They weren't going to have an inquiry until political pressure (I suspect people wanted to get voted in again) caved.

An inquiry wouldn't contribute to the political narrative of the day. The "assault style weapons" OIC, which had been in development for many months beforehand, dropped only a few days later and I'll bet the PM and Blair were more than a bit disappointed to learn that the shooter wasn't licensed and had obtained his weapons illegally (smuggling, diversion and murder) so they couldn't use the incident as even a partial rationale for the ban.

Then we're told that not all police involved will be required to testify or speak again. We're to trust their notes are captured elsewhere and it's all good.

While I was initially against this as well, in a kinda of knee-jerk way, others have brought out some valid arguments supporting this. If needed later on, there is nothing stopping the MCC from compelling testimony from anyone to clarify the statements taken.

I'll say it again, what else did the RCMP choose to leave out of the inquiry?

More seems to be coming out. As long as the government doesn't impose a "Somalia Inquiry" style end to the MCC, we may actually get to the bottom of things.

 

[KevinB]

WRT Shotguns, not sure anyone remembers the Connie Jacob’s inquiry.
https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/2d8...1014-report-to-minister-into-death-jacobs.pdf

That pretty much sealed the end of Shotgun viability for LE in Canada, as Connie Jacob’s 9yr old son Ty was struck by two pellets and killed by an RCMP shotgun discharge aimed at his mother (who was also killed) who had shot at CST Voller.

 

[Booter]

WRT Shotguns, not sure anyone remembers the Connie Jacob’s inquiry.
https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/2d8...1014-report-to-minister-into-death-jacobs.pdf

That pretty much sealed the end of Shotgun viability for LE in Canada, as Connie Jacob’s 9yr old son Ty was struck by two pellets and killed by an RCMP shotgun discharge aimed at his mother (who was also killed) who had shot at CST Voller.

Don’t quote me
On this- but I believe this event led to us changing our ammunition for the shotgun as well. It rings a bell for some
Reason. But that’s was 24 years ago

 

[Booter]

Police Weapons
Police issued shotguns should be supplied with the newly developed, R.C.M.P. approved, nine pellet "00" buck shot ammunition with 25 percent tighter spread pattern, and the rifle sights fitted on these shotguns should be replaced with bead sights.
[77] The R.C.M.P. have already approved and are making available the new ammunition, but are having difficulty with obtaining the ammunition from the United States due to problems of approval of export licences by United States authorities. If this difficulty becomes unresolvable, it may be necessary at some point to begin manufacturing the ammunition in Canada. The benefit is, of course, obvious in that a tighter spread pattern would have decreased the likelihood of Ty Jacobs being struck by two of the pellets.

[78] There was some evidence adduced that the rifle sights on the shotgun had the effect of blocking the lower area of the target. Evidence was adduced that this could remedied by a Mossberg ghost ring sight or the usual bead sight seen on most shotguns. The rifle sights had been placed on R.C.M.P. shotguns because of the necessity to use slugs from time to time in bear country. There is no rifling in shotgun barrels, and I would suggest that the rifle sights give a false sense of accuracy. The sensible move would seem to be to return to bead sights which were originally intended for shotguns.

There it is. Interesting the call to return to bead sights.

“plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose”

 

[KevinB]

Don’t quote me
On this- but I believe this event led to us changing our ammunition for the shotgun as well. It rings a bell for some
Reason. But that’s was 24 years ago

Ammunition and type of barrel IIRC.
Designed to decrease pattern spread.

Frankly I’m not a shotgun fan, I know LEO’s who do a lot of Roadblocks like them with Slug - but I think one of the best quotes that came out of DHTC was a certain MWO who said “the Queen owns every bullet in the gun, once you fire it, you own it..”


I’ve been biting my tongue for a bit on AS response drills, but my opinion based on a few course I have taken and the data they have presented is that even a lone officer should attempt to engage at the earliest possible moment. Of course I also have a much different background than most patrol officers. Due to the abundance of take home cars down here, everyone is a solo car, unless under initial employment under a TO.
Every member here has a rifle assigned both at the Sheriffs and Town level, and a Plate Carrier and IFAK. State Troopers in VA generally don’t have rifles for hiway patrol (which is pretty odd to me, but are allowed personal rifles if from the approved list).

 

[Booter]

I’ve been biting my tongue for a bit on AS response drills, but my opinion based on a few course I have taken and the data they have presented is that even a lone officer should attempt to engage at the earliest possible moment.

which is true- did you see something that disagrees with that?

I was the builder of a muni course at their request and have collected a lot of user/instructor AS nonsense over the years,

The philosophy for all of them has that as a fundamental, how the officers chooses the engagement or what the lull in action response is what changes.

For example- No known stimulus to guide you to the shooter. Do you hunker down, dig out a nest…how big an area do you clear for yourself? That’s really where the agencies start diverging,

But what is built into those courses is an assumption that an event isn’t 20kms long and doesn’t carry on for 12 hours or whatever it was. I don’t recall seeing that approached.

After the California Dorner shootings I recall that event autopsy going around but we never digested the lessons and used them. Which may have been an opportunity.

 

[Booter]

There are very few operational members who aren’t carbine trained now and should have access to them.

There are pockets of officers but generally it’s the exception now.

There is even a drift towards individually issuing HBA. Which I’ve already done for years at unit level. Same goes IFAK and my officers all get annual basic trauma training and we get trauma scenarios for them as well.

That’s not a national requirement though. Only the initial famil with IFAK is

 

[Haggis]

“the Queen owns every bullet in the gun, once you fire it, you own it..”

I'm stealing this for my recruits (with attribution, of course).

 

[mariomike]

Same goes IFAK and my officers all get annual basic trauma training and we get trauma scenarios for them as well.

Saw an interesting civilian GSW involving police transport years ago.

We were in an ER, and got a call for a GSW. We were just pulling out of the ER driveway, when a police car came roaring in.

In the backseat of the police car was a young, unconscious, guy with a GSW to the chest. Must have hit a major artery. The hard plastic backseat was a "flood of blood".

The two officers were both in the front seat.

We loaded him onto our stretcher at the ER drop-off zone, and wheeled him in.

The doctor said he didn't have another minute to live.

He survived. Thanks to those two officers.

I believe police "scoop and run" was more common back then compared to now.

 

[Booter]

Most of our officers have some form of trauma kit for GSW now. But I recall a drive by gun shot to the face in 2003, it happened next to me as I was walking out of a store with my slurpee, where I just dragged a guy by his lapels into a community policing van and shoved gauze in his face while my partner drove.

It would have taken longer to get the EMS response organized than to get him to the ER, once in the ER it was EMS who saw us in the van who got them packaged for the ER

A patrol up the road took care of the high risk. We were too far behind the 8 ball when we caught up to what we saw

I to this day remember my response “what the ****….no way” slurrrrrrp “oh my god!”

When you really get down on it- you and I are discussing decades. It’s pretty amazing how things have changed eh MarioMike?

 

[mariomike]

When you really get down on it- you and I are discussing decades. It’s pretty amazing how things have changed eh MarioMike?

I got on our department's emergency bus and truck division in 1980, and looked back with no regret.

Paid as a paramedic, but with better working conditions.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I always understood that you did CPR, if possible, until rescue showed. It not about saving the life, it's about keeping the blood circulating so they can harvest the organs. Which to me, just makes so much sense.

We done CPR on people pulled out of the river because the family was there, even though we knew it was to late. To see our guys try to save their loved one, meant a lot to them.

 

[Brad Sallows]

even a lone officer should attempt to engage at the earliest possible moment

Suppressive fire?

 

[Booter]

Suppressive fire?

such an interesting topic that I would love to discuss.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I prefer 'spec' fire.

 

[lenaitch]

There it is. Interesting the call to return to bead sights.

“plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose”

Unclear - did the RCMP go to 00-Buck around that time? What did you load before? The OPP was loading 00-Buck back in the early '70s when I joined.

 

[Booter]

Unclear - did the RCMP go to 00-Buck around that time? What did you load before? The OPP was loading 00-Buck back in the early '70s when I joined.

They went to a tighter spreading 00. We were using 00 before but there was a new, All the rage, tighter spread pattern one

 

[Eye In The Sky]

There it is. Interesting the call to return to bead sights.

“plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose”

Less “tunnel vision”? I learned to shoot a shotgun both eyes open. I learned rifles during basic, one eye closed. It wasn’t til years later, I did a small arms coaching course with WO Ron Surette, who taught use to shoot with the C79 with both eyes open; took a bit of time to sort it out but once you had it, it was pretty swept up.

I’ve lost most of those skills now; aircrew so pers wpn is the old 9mm. Still always “pointed” a 12ga like i did when I was 16.

 

[Eaglelord17]

My concerns with this whole case have nothing to do with the officers reactions (other than the firehall shooting). It was unprecedented, and unpredictable. They performed about as well as can be expected, they are humans not gods.

My concerns are to do with the amount of people who reported the shooter illegally possessing firearms and nothing being done. The extremely questionable looking relationship between him and the police (i.e. was he a informant and if he was were they purposely letting him break the law). There was warning signs this guy was up to no good for a while, why had nothing been done up to that point is more my question.