Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020

[brihard]

time will tell. i believe the deal the RCMP give to provinces/municipalities in the past was on the back of under paying their cops, in comparison to other large police agencies. once this evens out, and once provinces/muni's have to pay the whole meal deal, they will in my mind, more likely disposed towards establishing their own police agencies. start up cost - for sure, but they will own these cops vs. some cop in Grand Forks BC's chain of command going from GFBC to E Div HQ to RCMP HQ Ottawa........said other forums, I am a fan of the Australian and German way of doing policing business........

It’s evened out. The Mounties got their raise last year and are pretty much on par. I actually think an NS police service could probably get away with paying their members a bit less based on housing costs outside of Halifax. NS has a couple municipal services with pay in the low to mid 90s. However, a provincial police service would lose the immediate and direct federal subsidy that RCMP contracts receive. I think it’s between 10 and 30% depending on population size.

It might be a balance of the financial cost to do it well enough versus the political cost of not doing it. The province may wait a bit to see if there’s any federal lead on supporting transition away from RCMP based on the report’s recommendations first.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Doesn't their contract stipulate that they will be the highest paid police force in Canada? And how does that work when other forces have the same contractual obligation? Sounds like a vicious circle of raises.

 

[brihard]

Doesn't their contract stipulate that they will be the highest paid police force in Canada? And how does that work when other forces have the same contractual obligation? Sounds like a vicious circle of raises.

Whose? If you mean the Mounties, no, not at all. I’m not aware of any service with that as a contract condition.

There’s a pretty comprehensive list of comparable first class constable base salaries here: The Repository

RCMP are down around 46th or so. The list jostles a lot depending on who’s signed a new collective agreement most recently.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Whose? If you mean the Mounties, no, not at all. I’m not aware of any service with that as a contract condition.

There’s a pretty comprehensive list of comparable first class constable base salaries here: The Repository

RCMP are down around 46th or so. The list jostles a lot depending on who’s signed a new collective agreement most recently.

Kingston FD has it in their contact that they always make a percentage more than KPD. It's a bit of an ongoing joke.

 

[lenaitch]

It’s evened out. The Mounties got their raise last year and are pretty much on par. I actually think an NS police service could probably get away with paying their members a bit less based on housing costs outside of Halifax. NS has a couple municipal services with pay in the low to mid 90s. However, a provincial police service would lose the immediate and direct federal subsidy that RCMP contracts receive. I think it’s between 10 and 30% depending on population size.

It might be a balance of the financial cost to do it well enough versus the political cost of not doing it. The province may wait a bit to see if there’s any federal lead on supporting transition away from RCMP based on the report’s recommendations first.

I think it is way south of that. A 2021 document I saw said Kentville is in the mid-$70s. A buddy lives in Annapolis Royal which has a 3 or 4 member department. He is moving because of the high property taxes. Most of these small departments rely on the RCMP or Halifax for services such as forensic, tactical, etc. that would have to be somehow replicated by the province.

Edit to add: Clearly, a lot things went wrong that night, but I would challenge a provincial police service to have many (any?) more members working in a rural detachment in the middle of the night.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Whose? If you mean the Mounties, no, not at all. I’m not aware of any service with that as a contract condition.

There’s a pretty comprehensive list of comparable first class constable base salaries here: The Repository

RCMP are down around 46th or so. The list jostles a lot depending on who’s signed a new collective agreement most recently.

Tanks bri. It's just something I've heard for years. Figured it's time for clarification.

 

[Booter]

the RCMP prior to the association was to be within the top five, in good faith, on TOTAL COMPENSATION.

So they included the pension contributions and benefits which were slightly ahead of other agencies usually. Even if dollar to dollar salary wise they seemed a little lower. This came in after a crisis in the early mid nineties where the RCMP was so poorly compensated that they were at food banks in BC.

It was during PM Harper that we drifted far off that mark- and was one of the initial drivers of the association.

There was a large raise promised, based on that good faith top five, that was clawed back with a “we don’t owe you anything” and then the association talk gained steam.

 

[Booter]

A

I think it is way south of that. A 2021 document I saw said Kentville is in the mid-$70s. A buddy lives in Annapolis Royal which has a 3 or 4 member department. He is moving because of the high property taxes. Most of these small departments rely on the RCMP or Halifax for services such as forensic, tactical, etc. that would have to be somehow replicated by the province.

Edit to add: Clearly, a lot things went wrong that night, but I would challenge a provincial police service to have many (any?) more members working in a rural detachment in the middle of the night.

Nova Scotia provincial force would have done nothing differently. The Atlantic curse is that it is too quiet too often so when over taken by violence the loop closes slower. It’s first met with disbelief. Combine that with very light staffing because of economics and it’s a perfect storm for a stumble at first. Any agency would have the same issue.

 

[brihard]

the RCMP prior to the association was to be within the top five, in good faith, on TOTAL COMPENSATION.

“In good faith” is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. In writing or it ain’t worth anything.

 

[Booter]

“In good faith” is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. In writing or it ain’t worth anything.

Kinda like a “gentleman’s agreement”.

Here is some background of the pre-association environment on compensation:

ARCHIVED - Expenditure Review of Federal Public Sector - Volume Two - Compensation Snapshop and Historical Perspective, 1990 to 2003 11 / 15

Expenditure Review of Federal Public Sector - Volume Two - Compensation Snapshop and Historical Perspective, 1990 to 2003

www.tbs-sct.canada.ca

Most notably:

The legal context for pay determination in the RCMP is set by two factors: members do not have the right to form a union and bargain collectively; and the Treasury Board is the employer and has the authority to establish the level of pay and allowances to be paid to RCMP members. Notwithstanding, since 1974 a system of elected staff relations representatives does provide members with a voice in pay determination.

In the absence of a right to collective bargaining for members, the RCMP Pay Council brings together representatives of RCMP management and of the members, as well as an independent Chair. Each year, the Council compares total compensation[122]for the RCMP with that of the two provincial police forces and six large city forces. In recent years, including 2002–03, raises have been set so that RCMP total compensation corresponds with the average of the top three forces in the reference group.

Salaries for regular members are determined by the Treasury Board, taking into account the recommendations of the RCMP Pay Council, as endorsed by the RCMPCommissioner. Although the Treasury Board has accepted to approve salary increases on this basis, it has been careful not to adopt such a policy formally, in the event that in a given year increases for one or more forces might be "unreasonable."

 

[lenaitch]

“In good faith” is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. In writing or it ain’t worth anything.

Commissioned officers in the OPP do not have a legal bargaining unit. Their pay and benefits exist on a Letter of Agreement that says they will get what the members get, signed by a Deputy Minister . . . in 1998. I could be gone at the stroke of a pen.

 

[RedFive]

A

Nova Scotia provincial force would have done nothing differently. The Atlantic curse is that it is too quiet too often so when over taken by violence the loop closes slower. It’s first met with disbelief. Combine that with very light staffing because of economics and it’s a perfect storm for a stumble at first. Any agency would have the same issue.

The report spends an awful lot of time talking about the RCMP's failures, and no time talking about how the politicians who held the purse strings that could have paid for all of those capabilities refused to spend that money on the RCMP.

The RCMP owns some blame for not doing more to secure higher funding or going public with how bad things were as a result of poor budgets.

I'm 0% surprised the report authored by the same government that wouldn't spend money on law enforcement doesn't blame the government for short changing the RCMP and severely limiting their ability to respond to a critical incident like this.

The RCMP can, and does routinely respond to active situations like this elsewhere in Canada, with vastly more positive results. This debacle mostly rests on the shoulders of the politicians and tax payers of Nova Scotia, in my opinion.

It's time for the RCMP to stop being the Walmart of policing. Either get out of contract Policing altogether, or if we choose to continue doing it we need to tell cities and provinces "if you want a Detachment of the country's best cops, here's the bill. We do things our way. If you can't, or won't afford this, find somebody else".

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The report spends an awful lot of time talking about the RCMP's failures, and no time talking about how the politicians who held the purse strings that could have paid for all of those capabilities refused to spend that money on the RCMP.

The RCMP owns some blame for not doing more to secure higher funding or going public with how bad things were as a result of poor budgets.

I'm 0% surprised the report authored by the same government that wouldn't spend money on law enforcement doesn't blame the government for short changing the RCMP and severely limiting their ability to respond to a critical incident like this.

The RCMP can, and does routinely respond to active situations like this elsewhere in Canada, with vastly more positive results. This debacle mostly rests on the shoulders of the politicians and tax payers of Nova Scotia, in my opinion.

It's time for the RCMP to stop being the Walmart of policing. Either get out of contract Policing altogether, or if we choose to continue doing it we need to tell cities and provinces "if you want a Detachment of the country's best cops, here's the bill. We do things our way. If you can't, or won't afford this, find somebody else".

I’d tend to agree with everything except the “taxpayers” part. Can you add some detail to that? I’m guessing it’s similar to the “the CAF is in the poor state it is in because voters let politicians let it happen” idea…

Some of the recommendations are so detached, IMO, to what happened I can’t imagine how they got included…unless specifically to support an anti-gun ownership agenda.

 

[RedFive]

I’d tend to agree with everything except the “taxpayers” part. Can you add some detail to that? I’m guessing it’s similar to the “the CAF is in the poor state it is in because voters let politicians let it happen” idea…

Some of the recommendations are so detached, IMO, to what happened I can’t imagine how they got included…unless specifically to support an anti-gun ownership agenda.

Politicians only spend money on what will get them votes. I suppose "voters" would have been a better word to use.

 

[Booter]

The report spends an awful lot of time talking about the RCMP's failures, and no time talking about how the politicians who held the purse strings that could have paid for all of those capabilities refused to spend that money on the RCMP.

The RCMP owns some blame for not doing more to secure higher funding or going public with how bad things were as a result of poor budgets.

I'm 0% surprised the report authored by the same government that wouldn't spend money on law enforcement doesn't blame the government for short changing the RCMP and severely limiting their ability to respond to a critical incident like this.

The RCMP can, and does routinely respond to active situations like this elsewhere in Canada, with vastly more positive results. This debacle mostly rests on the shoulders of the politicians and tax payers of Nova Scotia, in my opinion.

It's time for the RCMP to stop being the Walmart of policing. Either get out of contract Policing altogether, or if we choose to continue doing it we need to tell cities and provinces "if you want a Detachment of the country's best cops, here's the bill. We do things our way. If you can't, or won't afford this, find somebody else".

Name Another active shooter incident that looks like this one in size and scope. Especially routine.

Although I think from the meat of your post we agree and think the same thing. The emergency management at the provincial level isn’t Mounties- they bungled a whole bunch of things.

But they get obscured by the rest of this. Because federal is a better target

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Politicians only spend money on what will get them votes. I suppose "voters" would have been a better word to use.

They’re interchangeable I guess. I’m going to guess the average taxpayer/voter understands police funding to the same level they understand military funding. Not very well, and politicians make no effort to change that as it’s to their advantage.

MacNeil was Premier when this happened; he was happy to remain silent when there was so much public outrage that an ALERT hadn’t gone out that night, even though the only authorities that had access and capability to send one that night was Provincial EMO Dept. They also run the 911 system so couldn’t even claim ignorance of what was happening.

One of the most cowardly thing I’ve seen a grown man do.

 

[Booter]

They’re interchangeable I guess. I’m going to guess the average taxpayer/voter understands police funding to the same level they understand military funding. Not very well, and politicians make no effort to change that as it’s to their advantage.

MacNeil was Premier when this happened; he was happy to remain silent when there was so much public outrage that an ALERT hadn’t gone out that night, even though the only authorities that had access and capability to send one that night was Provincial EMO Dept. They also run the 911 system so couldn’t even claim ignorance of what was happening.

One of the most cowardly thing I’ve seen a grown man do.

Completely agree.

 

[RedFive]

Name Another active shooter incident that looks like this one in size and scope. Especially routine.

Although I think from the meat of your post we agree and think the same thing. The emergency management at the provincial level isn’t Mounties- they bungled a whole bunch of things.

But they get obscured by the rest of this. Because federal is a better target

This one was going to keep going until we found and stopped the shooter, who was changing clothes and location constantly. It was an hours long hunt.

Langley homeless community 'living in fear' after deadly shooting, says advocate

 

[Booter]

This one was going to keep going until we found and stopped the shooter, who was changing clothes and location constantly. It was an hours long hunt.

Langley homeless community 'living in fear' after deadly shooting, says advocate

Not even remotely similar scale, geography, or call factors- and it had the benefit of the Nova Scotia call being in the news.

That’s also not routine Langley business.

We ll have to disagree on what you think matches the complexity of the Nova Scotia factors, we re not Far off on the stuff that matters.

It is my opinion that the Nova Scotia incident is almost peerless internationally in police operations and any rural manhunt off similar details prior to this incident would have looked the same for a long period. Regardless of agency, especially any rural place with a similar crime index. We don’t have to agree, opinions and assholes etc.

 

[RedFive]

Fair enough.