AESOp ( MOC 081)

[Sub_Guy]

I should clarify.  402 is a waste of $$$ in terms of training AES Ops. 

Shut'er down and move everything to Greenwood.  SIM the basic course then fly on MOAT/OTU.  The savings would be enormous!

 

[Eagle_Eye_View]

We did offer that COA, however it got shut down by 2 CAD. We also got briefed on the futur aircrew training (or whatever it's called). 2 CAD is working on revamping the pilot,ACSO & AESOP training and combining part of the training as a crew (kinda like MOAT) possibly using a King Air platform with radar, EO and maybe ESM on it. CAE is coming to interview us to gather a better understanding for our trade skills and requirements. My bet is the school would move to portage as well, again anything can happen but that's my personnal guess.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Sounds like a decent plan, but how does that fit in for the TAC Hel, SAR, Fighter, and transport bunch?

Save the King Air platform for the SOF guys and stop wasting resources on something that isn't needed!  Just my  :2c:.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Save the King Air platform for the SOF guys and stop wasting resources on something that isn't needed!  Just my  :2c:.

I agree and also agree on moving all initial occ trg to Greenwood.  It should be long enough to post people;  fling-wing types could be APd to YAW for OTU, and still home on the weekends to see kids and conduct Marriage Maintenance.  After MOAT/OTU, the folks posted to the west coast would then do the free trip gig to their homeplate.

This would also free up Gonzo YFR for the ACSOs.  Phase 2 of the new (old?) BAC could be all PCT and OMS, although I am not 100% sold on the idea of folks getting wings without ever having operated in the airborne battlespace.

To enhance the way people are selected, the trade should/could introduce a 'selection week', along the line of what SAR Techs do (minus all that physical crap...errrr...trg).  Input from TDOs, PSOs and trade SMEs to generate scenarios for the week that would exercise and assess aptitude in CRM, SA, basic operator skills (i.e. homings, analyzing ESM parameters, extracting/logging data on EO, etc).  Throw in some basic theory lectures with tests (assess mbr's learning/memory ability).  Score everyone, write a 9-12 line assessment para(mini course report).  Everyone gets ranked for that selection year.  PSOs get to see the selection score/write up as well as the actual selection board.

Might sound like it costs money up front, but better to use that selection tool than the 5s, after putting everyone thru BAEQ, AMT, and BAQC and then finding out the mbr doesn't have the aptitude to succeed in the trade.  :2c:

 

[Sub_Guy]

EITS -  Wings would be awarded post-MOAT/OTU.

 

[Eagle_Eye_View]

Basically the only reason the students will fly on the Gonzo is to receive their wings. Can't remember where but we read that in order to receive Wing level grad you must have airborne operations. For now, the CT-142 is the easiest way to go.

EITS - The main issue is not getting decent candidates, but finding people to join this trade. In other words not enough applications. I know it's not fun to hear this especially for people who have been paciently waiting up to 1 year to get into this trade.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

EITS -  Wings would be awarded post-MOAT/OTU.

Ya; basically everything is going back to the pre-DEA trial stuff.  One course (BAQC+ aka BAC), Wings/OFP after MOAT/OTU.

However..part of the trade being able to do direct entry/Avr etc it had to adopt a QL3 and QL5 type training methodology.  I don't recall if 'how we are going to maintain a QL3 qual was covered in the SAAWG minutes.

Why the move back to the 2009 way of doing things?  $$ and effort was put into changing things to the current state. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Basically the only reason the students will fly on the Gonzo is to receive their wings. Can't remember where but we read that in order to receive Wing level grad you must have airborne operations. For now, the CT-142 is the easiest way to go.

EITS - The main issue is not getting decent candidates, but finding people to join this trade. In other words not enough applications. I know it's not fun to hear this especially for people who have been paciently waiting up to 1 year to get into this trade.

I just hope "we" aren't lowering our expectations too much at each stage (selection, Initial Occ Trg, MOAT/OTU) before the operator gets to a crew.  Crew life is busy enough, the less time us line guys have to invest 'babysitting' the more time we can spend effectively;  OJTPs, continuation training, maintaining currencies, etc.  Not that the TE life is all sunny vacations, don't get me wrong.  I know it must suck to be at 1 CFFTS and bouncing back and forth to ZX and I heard what the 404 folks are doing in early '16.  Busy times.

I thought the bottle neck right now was Gonzo YFR and serviceability?  I know we had 4 tails when I went thru and only lost flights to Wx. 

 

[Eagle_Eye_View]

EITS,

You're right about the QL3/5. Forgot to mention even tough it will be "1" course, it will be 2 phases. Phase 1 QL3 and phase 2 QL4 and MOAT/OTU QL5. This will be work on in the spring during the QS board etc.

The reason is because of wait time between BAQC and IAQC. Students are still required to remember the stuff learned on BAQC when they show up on IAQC. However we had students who had to wait up to a 1 year before getting course loaded on IAQC, and that's unsat IMO.

 

[Eagle_Eye_View]

Serv is slowly getting better and in fact right now we're chasing our YFR due to weather. The bottle neck right now is having 12 students BAQC qualified awaiting IAQC. These guys will be our priority until next summer. The next BAQC will start in Apr 16.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

EITS,

You're right about the QL3/5. Forgot to mention even tough it will be "1" course, it will be 2 phases. Phase 1 QL3 and phase 2 QL4 and MOAT/OTU QL5. This will be work on in the spring during the QS board etc.

Okay, so Wings after QL5.  I'm assuming OFP will remain "QL5", and spec pay will remain QL5 as well.  This makes a lot of sense now.  Hopefully the QSWB will include a MH type from both the TE and line Sqns, an ASO from the TE and line Sqns, and a NASO from the TE and line Sqns as well. 

The reason is because of wait time between BAQC and IAQC. Students are still required to remember the stuff learned on BAQC when they show up on IAQC. However we had students who had to wait up to a 1 year before getting course loaded on IAQC, and that's unsat IMO.

That is a long wait.  Any chance of IAQC going back to 8 vice 4?

Despite everything, it sounds like there is some thought and action on the initial occ trg stuff.  I don't think anyone 'has it easy' right now between Wpg, the MOAT/OTU folks or line sqns.  Be an interesting year!

 

[thomasm77]

Well damn. Sounds like you folks are starved for people, and then there's those of us here pacing the fence line waiting for word on whether we can jump to those greener pastures.

Everything is done on my end. Just waiting on a meeting with the BPSO, hopefully before I'm off to PLQ army at end Jan. That won't leave much time for me to stress on what the answer is from the forces. It'll be rather busy couple months, and if all goes well I should be getting an answer sometime in April/May. Probably right in the middle of high readiness ex season. Ha.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I think we are Red, or Amber at least.  A small trade; it doesn't take many people releasing, or leaving for UTPNCM etc to affect us quickly.

Good luck with the OT!

 

[thomasm77]

I think we are Red, or Amber at least.  A small trade; it doesn't take many people releasing, or leaving for UTPNCM etc to affect us quickly.

Good luck with the OT!

Thanks Eye. Its a matter of finding out whether the engineers will let me go now. We shall see.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

"They" don't get much say, IMO;  there is an established OUTCAP that they don't control, based on the trades TES.  All your CO can say is "I support" or "I don't support".  The PSO interview is a good thing to be well-prepared and turned out for.  I had a binder with all my 'research' material in it, I spoke to AES Ops very close to my interview, I wore 3B (that was DOTD for the PSO office).  Treat it like a job interview; best foot forward.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Well damn. Sounds like you folks are starved for people

You have no idea. 

 

[thomasm77]

"They" don't get much say, IMO;  there is an established OUTCAP that they don't control, based on the trades TES.  All your CO can say is "I support" or "I don't support".  The PSO interview is a good thing to be well-prepared and turned out for.  I had a binder with all my 'research' material in it, I spoke to AES Ops very close to my interview, I wore 3B (that was DOTD for the PSO office).  Treat it like a job interview; best foot forward.

I should rephrase: The Combat Engineers are currently under manned (as is everyone from the sounds of things). From my understanding, this means it could be slightly more difficult leaving the Corps, as it is a competition. Not to get into any new trade, but to get out of current one.
My CO has and my entire chain supports the OT, and they are pushing my paperwork. It's nice to be backed. Just waiting on my interview with the BPSO, which should be in January before I head to PLQ, on the 25th.
As for research for said meeting, I'm going to lay out what I know, or think I know. I'm hoping you gentlemen can assist me in correcting any misinformation I have, as well as filling in any info you think I should be armed with.

Training: 6 months or so in Winnipeg, depending on how much of a gap there is between your basic flight training -BAQC (Basic Air Qualification? 8 weeks) and your IAQC (Initial Air Qualification? 16 weeks). After completing this, posted either east or west, then out to either Greenwood for MOAT(Maritime Operational Air Training) or Shearwater for OTU(Operational Trg Unit) for another 24 weeks.

Postings:
-Rotary, either Esquimalt or Shearwater. I'm guessing that these postings will involve a lot of time out to sea with the navy. I'm curious to know how long these deployments are usually? There's a lot of hearsay in the army world about how it all works, and I'd like to be clear going forward. Keeping in mind that coming from the army I'm not too concerned about time away. It's all part of signing on the dotted line.
-Fixed wing, either Comox or Greenwood. Deployments can last anywhere from weeks to months. Plenty of flights daily. Coastal patrols? Or am I out to lunch on that assumption?

With either platform I'm understanding there is plenty of flying, and your op tempo is high. You'd all prefer not to have to babysit, and noobs are expected to know their job and perform.

Family life - I'm not sure if this question will come up in the interview, but I'd like to be prepared for it. So, is there anything I should know in respects to it? Are AESOp's gone 250 days a year? Is the a major difference between MH and Fixed Wing for time gone (this ties back into my earlier question about MH deployments)? What can my family expect if I make it into this trade? I'd like to have us prepared and in the know.

Am I misinformed on anything, or is here any other pertinent info I should have?

Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Tom

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I should rephrase: The Combat Engineers are currently under manned (as is everyone from the sounds of things). From my understanding, this means it could be slightly more difficult leaving the Corps, as it is a competition. Not to get into any new trade, but to get out of current one.

All determined by the TES and 'health' of your trade.  Green trades = 2% of TES allowed OT out, 1% for Amber, 0.5% for Red.  There is a OUTCAP matrix on the DIN if you search Basic Production Documents.  It will have the OT OUTCAP for your trade for this FY listed there.

Training: 6 months or so in Winnipeg, depending on how much of a gap there is between your basic flight training -BAQC (Basic Air Qualification? 8 weeks) and your IAQC (Initial Air Qualification? 16 weeks). After completing this, posted either east or west, then out to either Greenwood for MOAT(Maritime Operational Air Training) or Shearwater for OTU(Operational Trg Unit) for another 24 weeks.

Check out the changes coming to the trg system and 'ways' now in play and coming down the pipe that Eagle Eye View posted earlier.  FYI, he is currently an AES Op instructor in Winnipeg for the initial trg phase.

BAQC (Basic AESOP Qual Course, QL3) was about 3 months before with IAQC (Intermediate AESOP Qual Course, QL5 / flying phase) scheduled for 2 months but subject to flying schedule extensions.

MOAT and OTU, call it 6 months.  Currently, posting happen between Winnipeg and MOAT/OTU, then off you go to get a platform qual.

Postings:
-Rotary MH , either Esquimalt or Shearwater. I'm guessing that these postings will involve a lot of time out to sea with the navy. I'm curious to know how long these deployments are usually? There's a lot of hearsay in the army world about how it all works, and I'd like to be clear going forward. Keeping in mind that coming from the army I'm not too concerned about time away. It's all part of signing on the dotted line.

I'll leave that for a fling-winger.  ^-^

Fixed wing LRP, either Comox or Greenwood. Deployments can last anywhere from weeks to months. Plenty of flights daily. Coastal patrols? Or am I out to lunch on that assumption?

There are types of patrols flown along coasts.  Deployments can be planned in advance or sometimes happen 'overnight/quickly'.  Not much more to say about that on here. 

With either platform I'm understanding there is plenty of flying, and your op tempo is high. You'd all prefer not to have to babysit, and noobs are expected to know their job and perform.

It is different in the army, for LRP operators at least and I will assume even more so for MH, as they are 1 AESOP/crew.  But, in LRP, once you are done MOAT and onto your OJTP and continuation trg, you are expected to be pro-active in progressing your training, more so than the Army - it's not a hand-held exercise as much as the army does.

Family life - I'm not sure if this question will come up in the interview, but I'd like to be prepared for it. So, is there anything I should know in respects to it? Are AESOp's gone 250 days a year? Is the a major difference between MH and Fixed Wing for time gone (this ties back into my earlier question about MH deployments)? What can my family expect if I make it into this trade? I'd like to have us prepared and in the know.

After MOAT and on a crew, you won't be gone that much (250/year) but could do half a year in the current op tempo.  That will likely slow down some before you hit an LRP crew if you are posted that way but, I would say it is safe to say 4 months away, spread out over the year, is a conservative number at this time.

I won't guess at the MH guys but generally speaking, they may go away less often but for longer stints - attached to a HMCS.

Am I misinformed on anything, or is here any other pertinent info I should have?

Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Tom

I would say, get a general understanding of what AES Ops do on the LRP and MH fleet.  Some of that you won't get in the clear on here but if you could arrange a phone call or email with one in the New Year, I think that would give you some more applic info on the actual job.  :2c:

 

[thomasm77]

Ok, I've reviewed the updated from Eagle Eye View. Lots of info there. Hopefully this bodes well for those us looking to gain entry into the trade. Sounds like a busy year upcoming for you fellas though.

Once again, a wealth of info, Eye. Thanks. I'll PM you in the new year about that phone call/email. I want to nail this interview, so I'll definitely pick you brain for any additional info that may come in handy.

Merry Christmas gentlemen, and a Happy New Year.

 

[TUNETOG]

Serv is slowly getting better and in fact right now we're chasing our YFR due to weather. The bottle neck right now is having 12 students BAQC qualified awaiting IAQC. These guys will be our priority until next summer. The next BAQC will start in Apr 16.

So Eagle, are you expecting to see the changes you're talking about as soon as the FY starts? Or do you expect it to be a slower transition? I've been on "first of" courses so to speak my whole career.

BMQ was the first English course my all French instructors did.

QL3 was the first version of that course they ran for Sigs

QL5 or DP 2 was one of the first ones.

Doesn't matter too much to me either way. Just interested.

@thomasm77

Listen to these guys. Eye especially as he has been invaluable in the two year wait for my CT/OT. They'll halo keep you in the loop for all these goings on in the trade.