AK-47‘s ?????

[Jarnhamar]

No, haven‘t experienced the Ak-47, but I watched
my best friend Danny Thompson get shot and killed
by one, so no there not so great.

SO it was the AK47s fault right?

At 70 meters give or take i had to aim high and left by about a foot and a half, maybe closer to two. I‘m sure theres more accurate ones out there but that was pretty horrible.

 

[lawandorder]

I was under the impression the AK took 7.63 not 7.62 rounds.  They can use our rounds in their weapons, but we can't use theirs.

 

[COBRA-6]

I was under the impression the AK took 7.63 not 7.62 rounds.  They can use our rounds in their weapons, but we can't use theirs.

No, the AK uses 7.62x39mm.

 

[GAP]

The AK-47 is a very effective, all weather, minimal training weapon that delivers good firepower. Having been on the receiving end of their fire and having used one in lieu of an M16, I would rate them very high. (It didn't take very long for the higher-highers to put a kibosh on our use of the 47)

 

[KevinB]

As for calibres, the 7.62 x 39 is nice because it‘s about as light as a 5.56 x 45 round, but has more stopping power at closer ranges. If you‘re doing CQB of any kind, the 7.62 will drop someone a lot faster. The drawback, of course, is that it doesn‘t have the range or accuracy of the longer rounds.

Sorry no way -- stay in your lane.

M44 7.62x39 Russian is a VERY aenemic round - with a terrible wound profile.

M855/C77 ball will fragement in CQB distances inside the human body (typically a 7" neck prior to framentation unless bone is struck) - While the M44 round will yaw and do a 360 - it does not fragment (low velocity) and does little damage.

Secondly the dam round weigh a lot and I can carry three M4 mags for the weight of 1 AK mag...

Despite popular myth the AK is not a particularily robust weapon - the gas tube cover on the upper handguard is sheet metal and if bent at all will impeed the piston and the weapon will not function (dont drop or let someone run over an AK...)  The Ak due to the piston tends to keep goign and going with a high round count and little cleaning.  However with the safety off the reciever has a large opening for dirt and other crap to become housed inside it (BAD).
  The safety is the most unergonomic POS imangineable so it is impossible to slip off with your right hand without removing it from the pistol grip (or at least impossible to maintain a function firing grip) - it is best left OFF Safe and not readied - readying when you need it -- or if you think you will need it - ready it and leave it off safe.

Having been forced to use an AK for a while in Afghanistan - I HATE IT. 

 

[Infanteer]

Not to mention that you can slice your friggen hand right open if you ain't careful when you ready the thing.... 8)

 

[KevinB]

Tsk Tsk -- rotate the gun toward the left side and use your left  - plus you should be wearing gloves when playing with toys 

 

[teddy49]

I think "The Infidel" is being a little hard on them.  Or he's just spoiled by all that M-4 goodness. ;D  I've seen a lot of pretty messed up AKs here, but I've yet to see one with a bent gas tube.  Not that it can't happen, but it's certainly not common.  And believe me, Iraqis never fail to amaze me with their new and innovative ways to screw up perfectly good rifles.  An Ultimak rail is a simple solution to that problem.

How far do you have to drop your AK for it to stop working?  I think the AK ties with the FAL for being able to work with the most parts removed.

I'm pretty sure that most rifles would be the worse for wear after being run over by any vehicle.  And I'd dare say that a milled receiver AK would fair better than most.

But like "The Infidel" said7.62x39 is a pretty anemic round all considered, with external ballistics similar to 30-30 Win an the terminal ballistics of...well...7.62x39.  It certainly doesn't shoot as flat as 5.56, and 300m is pretty much the limit of the cartridge.  And the weight of the ammo is a beotch.  I'm issued an AK here at work and I carry 8 mags on the vest.  With the ammo and the weight of the mags, it's probably the equivalent to 15 M-4 mags.  I haven't checked that on a scale though.

As far as Infidel-6s ergonomic complaints, this is one place where it sucks to be right handed.  I'm left eye dominant and consequently shoot rifles left handed.  And AK is a breeze to work left handed.  Just leave the left hand on the pistol grip and work everything with the right hand.  Give me an FAL though and I'll curse you to the grave for just the opposite reason.  If Mikhail Kalashnikov had been a tactical shooter, he would have put all the controls on the left side of the rifle.  But he didn't  so I guess for the vast majority of shooters it is an ergonomic nightmare.  Some updated versions have solved some problems.  The Zastava M-21 series for instance, use a safety similar to the Galil's which is placed conventionally above the pistol grip and certainly an improvement.  The lack of hold open device remains a sore spot with me and many others.  I certainly which it had one.  One field expedient for that is to use Chinese magazine followers with a flat back on them and then mill out the 2 "nibs" (technical term, that) which limit the top of the follower's travel.  This creates a poor man's hold open device, but the bolt will go forward when the empty mag is removed from the weapon.

It is also important to note that not all AKs are created equal.  Russians are decent.  Yugo's are good as long as you get a fixed stock version and not the underfolders.  All underfolding stocks are pretty much crap.  They don't let you get a proper sight picture without awkwardly canting your head to line up with the sights.  And they have a lot of slop making a proper repeatable fire position pretty much impossible to achieve.  If you have to have a folder, the East German and Romanian wire stock side folders are decent.  They don't appear all that rigid, but they lock up tight and are easily as stiff as a fixed stock.  But they can beat your cheeks up on recoil.  Not much there to have a good cheek weld with.  As well these stocks have about the same length of pull as a C7A2 stock one notch out from fully collapsed.  If you're not careful or have a tendency to postion your hear forward on the stock you will take the hinge in the upper lip or the nose.  The Russian triangular or composite side folders are the best, offering more surface area to pad the soft parts of the face and a longer length of pull.  I believe there is a Chinese version of this as well.

I guess pretty much any European manufactured AK is pretty much good to go, with East German being the the highest quality that I've seen here.  However you need to be careful about the 3rd world made ones.  The domestic Iraqi AKs are all outwardly identical to the Yugo ones with the rifle grenade sight and all.  But they are not near the quality.  They still work though, sometimes.

They aren't perfect, and they certainly aren't as nice to shoot as western designed rifles, but they take a licking and keep on ticking.  And they achieve minute of person accuracy, which was all the Soviet's were looking for when they designed the thing.

On a final note, I think that with his new moniker, Infidel-6 should start referring to himself in the third person. :dontpanic:

 

[KevinB]

I will conceed a few points to Teddy.

1.) ALL of our AK's are Russia.  However most are not new -- the newest is a 1998 AKMS - but we have some 50's marked AK-47's. 

2.) All where bought "on the economy" so needless to say when the local Afghani goes to sell a gun - he does not sell his best stock.

3.) I'm right handed with over 16 years of experience on the M16FOV.

Not sure if it is an Iraqi trait as well but the Afghan's seem to like using them w/o a buttstock -- hence why they fail basic marksmanship 101 - and usually dont get another shot at the PWT 

 

[1feral1]

I was under the impression the AK took 7.63 not 7.62 rounds.  They can use our rounds in their weapons, but we can't use theirs.

URBAN MYTH BUSTED:

Sorry dude No interchangability at all. Theirs in theirs only, and ours in ours only. No if ands or buts, PERIOD! Anyone tells you otherwise, they are full of shyte, and are nothing but LIARS and rumour mongers or at least don't know WTF they are talking about.

End of story.

Wes

PS

Hey Kevin - great pics! What yr of manufacture on those AKMs? They look beaten as hell, but I must confess some of the stuff we have captured out of Iraq, although only a few yrs old some of it, are completly wear torn and mis matched, even AK47 body covers on AKMs and AK47 gas tubes on AKM's and chrone AK-47 oprods too on AKM's. Rarely a matching rifle. Lots of Chi-Com Type-56-1's, Russian AK variants (including the earliest AK47 model with machined recievers and early pistol grip and wooden butt as only seen in books), Romanian AKMs , Polish AKMs, Yugoslavian AKM's, and the rest of it (of course including the AKM-S folders too).

 

[teddy49]

  Wow!!!  Is that the cream of the Crop? I just bought an East German Fixed stock from one of my guards that was still in the cosmoline.  And he had 6 more.  I've picked up another East German Side Folder that probably has 90% finish on it.  My issued work AK is the worst of the bunch having only about 70% finish.

Here's one of my guards wearing my body armour and holding my issued rifle

And unfortunately removing the buttstock is an Iraqi trait as well.  We've managed to cure our guards of it, at least with the weapons we have here.  I don't know what their personal ones are like.  Even stocks don't seem to help them much on the range.  But once you've seen some of the crap their local instructors tell them, you understand why they can't shoot worth beans.  It's a long hard road trying to get them to unlearn that stuff.

And FWIW, I'm sure it's posted here before, but AK's shoot 7.62x39mm and the NATO cartridge is 7.62x51mm.  So like Wes and Kevin said, there is no interoperability at all.

 

[MG34]

To add what the others who have actually picked a real AK up and fired it more than once or twice,the AK has some of the worst ergonomics going,poor cheek weld,piss poor designed cocking handle and mag release,and the fact that it spits gas into your face when you actually bother to take up a sight picture. The AK is just junk regardless of what "Tour of Duty" or Chuck Norris may state.

 

[teddy49]

To add what the others who have actually picked a real AK up and fired it more than once or twice,the AK has some of the worst ergonomics going,poor cheek weld,piss poor designed cocking handle and mag release,and the fact that it spits gas into your face when you actually bother to take up a sight picture. The AK is just junk regardless of what "Tour of Duty" or Chuck Norris may state.

Uhm...OK.  If you're a right handed shooter I'll concede the bulk of the ergonomic difficulties.  The safety sucks arse.  The cocking handle is in a poor position for the right handed shooter.  But misery loves company, you can find this feature on the SIG 54X and 55X series, the FNC, AR-18, Beretta AR-70, Daewoo K-1 and K-2, M-14 and derivatives, Valmet's and Galil's (which are AK's anyway) and even the brand new FN SCAR, though to be fair on this it is reversable.  In fact I think the the FAL remains the only commonly issued modern rifle with the cocking handle in the correct location for right handed shooters.  The HK G-3, HK53, MP-5 series have it located to far forward IMHO, though given the short length of an MP-5 it's not really an issue on that weapon.

As for the mag release, well the paddle type mag release is found on virtually every western military rifle that doesn't use AR-15/STANAG compatible magazines.  Including rifles as newly designed as the G-36 and the abortive XM-8 project.  Notwithstanding that those rifles are crap.
Also the FAL, SIG 55X series are in this club.  I don't really think of this as a major handicap, if you structure your mag change drills accordingly.  But then again I shoot rifles left handed so the AR-15/C-7 system isn't as quick for me as it is for a right handed firer.

If when you're talking about cheekweld, you're referring to the underfolder stocks I'll agree with you 120%, but if you're talking about the regular fixed stocks or the side folding stocks I've never had an issued with proper cheek weld.  Now I'm only 5'7" so if you're taller, I guess you could have length of pull issues which may compromise a proper cheek weld.

I've never had an AK blow gas into my face, so perhaps the ones you've fired have issues.  Also if the bulk of your experience is with Yugo AKs, they don't have vent holes in the gas tube, like most of the others, so that is sure to result in more gas at the back of the rifle.  But this issue would be unique to these rifles and their derivatives like the Iraqi Tabuk.  Also it appears that some of the Bulgarian rifles don't have vent holes as well.

I don't mean to sound like an AK apologist.  Believe me there are a number of rifles I'd rather be carrying, M-4 or SIG 55X series among them.  I'm only trying to give a fair assessment of the rifle, both positive and negative based on my experience with them, which I think is more extensive than most, but by no means all, people on this forum.  Calling it junk, I think, is unfair.  It's the peasants rifle for sure, and as such it is peasant-proof.  But it is a rifle that can usually be counted on to work.  Look at the pics from Kevin's post.  He didn't say that those rifles didn't work, just that they were in bad shape.  Even if they had to make 15 rifles out of every 20 that they bought, I'd like to see somebody do the same with some Viet Nam era M-16s that had been through what those had.

It's not perfect.  It's not indestructible.  It's not even that nice to shoot, but it works.  And I think that's what counts.

 

[Enzo]

Teddy, I think that's the first time I've noticed an after market sight (what's that, an EOTech?) such as you have on an AK. Nice mod.

Cheers...

 

[teddy49]

Teddy, I think that's the first time I've noticed an after market sight (what's that, an EOTech?) such as you have on an AK. Nice mod.

Cheers...

Thanks, yeah, it's an EO Tech (not sure which number) on an Ultimak Rail, which replaces the gas tube and clamps to the barrel.  Works pretty well, though it's a little high.

 

[SteveB]

Infidel and Teddy, you two would be the best to answer this.  I thought the AK-74 replaced the AKM quite some time ago.  Seems like you guys are still dealing with AKMs why is that? I hoped that you could at least have the pick of the locally available weapons.  Are 74s just that much less common than the 47/AKM or is the 5.45 ammo too rare?  I would guess that it would at least solve some of the wound leathality/weight problems 7.62x39 has.  All that said, I am thoroughly ignorant, never having even handled a 74 derivative myself. 

Seems like the ones Kev originally had in Afgan were some kind of restoration hobby.  It's lucky that 90% of the outcome is due to operator skill as opposed to weapon type.

At least this thread finally turned interesting.

Steve

 

[Big Red]

I've yet to see any of the 5.45 Soviet weapons in Iraq.  Iraq was producing its own 7.62x39 weapons in some quantity and never adopted 5.45.  I'm sure there's some kicking around from Uday's collections, but none were issued AFAIK.

 

[KevinB]

5.45's are very rare in Afghan as well -- the ANA use AKM's and Bulgarian AKMS versions.
The ONLY 5.45's I have found are the AKSU-74's (Krinkov's)

WRT Wounding -- the 5.45 behaves near identical to the M44 7.62x39mm round.
 

 

[1feral1]

I've yet to see any of the 5.45 Soviet weapons in Iraq.  Iraq was producing its own 7.62x39 weapons in some quantity and never adopted 5.45.  I'm sure there's some kicking around from Uday's collections, but none were issued AFAIK.

Iraq has never produced an AK, ya RPGs for sure, but no AKs. Many with Iraqi markings (safety catch and nomenclature) are Yugoslavian contracts, and the same goes with the bayonets.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[KevinB]

Tabuk (Sp??) made in Iraq AK

Some of them (and BRAND NEW Iranian AKM's) are floating in Afghanistan.

One of our guys with his pimp-47