Alberta government thread

[Altair]

I expect this is where you are going to get mad at me. But I am 100% against male to female transgender folks playing women's sports with a special emphasis on contact and combat sports. The solution is a separate league IMHO.

Also this is World Rugbys stance:

Transgender Guidelines | World Rugby

World Rugby guidelines on transgender.

www.world.rugby

Transgender Guidelines | World Rugby

World Rugby guidelines on transgender.

www.world.rugby

I too am agaisnt male to female transgender individuals playing in female sports, BUT, the caveat being males who have gone through puberty.

Before puberty, differences in male and female athletic performance is negligible.

It's puberty where males bulk up and build on those advantages year after year. And despite hormone therapy lessening some of those advantages, there will always be some lingering performance disparity.

But if a male identifies as a female at age 7 or 8, is on puberty blockers at age 11-12, and transitions at 17-18, they will have more or less the same performance as any other woman.

Zero issues with those transgender individuals playing female sports. And I believe most sporting categories follow that same logic.

Yet laws like Alberta lock these trans kids into puberty.

 

[Altair]

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/world-athletics-trans-ban-debate-1.6790454

World Athletics says its decision this week to ban transgender women from competing in elite female sport is based on the "overarching need to protect the female category."

But the organization's president Sebastian Coe says the move to exclude trans athletes who have gone through male puberty is about more than that. Coe says the move is about fairness over inclusion, and comes after months of being "inundated" by stakeholders that no other alternative would be acceptable.

So there is a 7 year old male in Alberta who identifies as a female and wants to be a boxer. Has diagnosed gender disphoria. How does this hypothetical transgender young person achieve their goal under Alberta's new laws?

 

[Halifax Tar]

I too am agaisnt male to female transgender individuals playing in female sports, BUT, the caveat being males who have gone through puberty.

Before puberty, differences in male and female athletic performance is negligible.

It's puberty where males bulk up and build on those advantages year after year. And despite hormone therapy lessening some of those advantages, there will always be some lingering performance disparity.

But if a male identifies as a female at age 7 or 8, is on puberty blockers at age 11-12, and transitions at 17-18, they will have more or less the same performance as any other woman.

Zero issues with those transgender individuals playing female sports.

My daughter has played minis and JR rugby since she was 2. She is just about to be 13 now. With the exception of when I am deployed I have coached her almost every year.

I now coach Jr Rugby at the U14 level, and this is the grade we separate by gender as contact is now in every facet of the game. rucking, mauling, tackling, scrumming.

I stand by my absolute statement. I am 100% against male to female transgender folks playing women's sports with a special emphasis on contact and combat sports. The solution is a separate league IMHO.

Before puberty, differences in male and female athletic performance is negligible.

That is not my observation at all.

The point of divergence is earlier than that in the majority. I would say U10 is where the divide happens. I have had a couple individual girls who were the exception and could keep up with the boys in pure athletic ability.

In case you'd like to see this our club's Jr program:

Mini Rugby – Halifax Tars RFC

halifaxtars.ca

 

[Altair]

My daughter has played minis and JR rugby since she was 2. She is just about to be 13 now. With the exception of when I am deployed I have coached her almost every year.

I now coach Jr Rugby at the U14 level, and this is the grade we separate by gender as contact is now in every facet of the game. rucking, mauling, tackling, scrumming.

I stand by my absolute statement. I am 100% against male to female transgender folks playing women's sports with a special emphasis on contact and combat sports. The solution is a separate league IMHO.



That is not my observation at all.

The point of divergence is earlier than that in the majority. I would say U10 is where the divide happens. I have had a couple individual girls who were the exception and could keep up with the boys in pure athletic ability.

In case you'd like to see this our club's Jr program:

Mini Rugby – Halifax Tars RFC

halifaxtars.ca

Understanding Puberty

Puberty was awkward enough when you were the one going through it. So how can you help your kids through all the changes?

kidshealth.org

Most females will start puberty when they’re 8 to 13 years old, and most males will start between 9 and 14.

So in your experience, would this track with your observation that U10 is the start of the divergence?

I know for my own daughter, age 10, she was the tallest in class for every year, boy or girl, until this year, where the boys are starting to match her.

Also the sudden need for regular deodorant use tells me puberty has probably started.

So again, 10-11 year old goes on puberty blockers, and as per World Athletics,or as the link you shared, rugby, those born as male can participate in female categories so long as they have not undergone male puberty, how does a young transgender young person in Alberta reach their goal?

You can advocate for a category that doesn't exist all you want, but the fact remains it doesn't exist. Unless you want to point me to where the transgender category exists in the Olympics.

 

[Lumber]

League 1: Females, plus trans-females who transitioned pre-puberty.

League 2: Males and trans-females who transitioned post-puberty.

Why wouldn't this work?

 

[Quirky]

League 1: Females, plus trans-females who transitioned pre-puberty.

League 2: Males and trans-females who transitioned post-puberty.

Why wouldn't this work?

How about a Male league, Female League and Trans League.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

And the scenario I keep circling back to, and not a soul has addressed it.

Ban those born as male from female sports if they have undergone puberty.

Ban puberty blockers from those born as male, forcing them to go through puberty

Can you explain how a trans kid who wants to be a female runner can do so with this system in place?

I don’t understand your question.

I am not proposing a system.

I made a post about my personal observations and the conclusions that I drew from my lived experience.

But, you may have just made my point about the “zealot” line that I used.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Understanding Puberty

Puberty was awkward enough when you were the one going through it. So how can you help your kids through all the changes?

kidshealth.org

So in your experience, would this track with your observation that U10 is the start of the divergence?

Sure.

I know for my own daughter, age 10, she was the tallest in class for every year, boy or girl, until this year, where the boys are starting to match her.

Also the sudden need for regular deodorant use tells me puberty has probably started.

So again, 10-11 year old goes on puberty blockers, and as per World Athletics,or as the link you shared, rugby, those born as male can participate in female categories so long as they have not undergone male puberty, how does a young transgender young person in Alberta reach their goal?

I remain unchanged. I am 100% against male to female transgender folks playing women's sports with a special emphasis on contact and combat sports.

I will add I am happy using the U14 grade as the separation of genders point, for my sport specifically.

You can advocate for a category that doesn't exist all you want, but the fact remains it doesn't exist. Unless you want to point me to where the transgender category exists in the Olympics.

I have no vested interest in transgender athletics at this point. But if they wish to advocate for their own leagues/competitions I would support that.

 

[Altair]

Sure.



I remain unchanged. I am 100% against male to female transgender folks playing women's sports with a special emphasis on contact and combat sports.

I will add I am happy using the U14 grade as the separation of genders point, for my sport specifically.

I'll give you the credit to own the fact that you personally don't give a damn about trans individuals in even the most basic of circumstances, never mind all the other nuances.

That said, I am glad that even the sport you coach allows trans individuals who have not gone through puberty to play in the female category, because, you know...science.

Also happy that you live in a province that doesn't arbitrarily decide to carpet bans things like puberty blockers.

I have no vested interest in transgender athletics at this point. But if they wish to advocate for their own leagues/competitions I would support that.

Segregation instead of reasonable accommodation.

1950s America would be proud.

 

[Altair]

League 1: Females, plus trans-females who transitioned pre-puberty.

League 2: Males and trans-females who transitioned post-puberty.

Why wouldn't this work?

The hormone treatments for post puberty trans females leave them weaker than men and stronger than women.

The worse of both worlds.

Edit to add: this is how things naturally work at present. The situation is how many countries and now Alberta force kids into the post puberty situation that leaves them in the worse of both worlds.

 

[Altair]

How about a Male league, Female League and Trans League.

The solution for real world individuals is something that doesn't exist.

Noble.

Hey trans kid. The answer to your question is....click your heels together three times and wish for a trans league.

Or don't live in Alberta, that also works.

 

[Altair]

I don’t understand your question.

I am not proposing a system.

I made a post about my personal observations and the conclusions that I drew from my lived experience.

But, you may have just made my point about the “zealot” line that I used.

Yet, I find myself taking the the cautious approach. Teens who exhibit gender dysphoria should, indeed, must seek professional counselling and need the support of their parents. But, I remain unconvinced that surgery and drugs are warranted except in the rare case.

The cautious approach you take versus the scenario presented, would fail the individual.

That said, nobody is able to come up with a answer to said scenario that actually exists in the real world. Naturally because, as the rules apply in Alberta, there is zero solutions for the trans kid in this scenario other than

A) stop having gender disphoria

B) Don't live in Alberta.

You think yourself not a zealot. I remain unconvinced.

 

[Quirky]

The solution for real world individuals is something that doesn't exist.

Noble.

Hey trans kid. The answer to your question is....click your heels together three times and wish for a trans league.

Or don't live in Alberta, that also works.

Not everyone in life can be accommodated.

Like I said before, don't let the door hit you on the way out if playing sports is so critical.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I'll give you the credit to own the fact that you personally don't give a damn about trans individuals in even the most basic of circumstances, never mind all the other nuances.

Me disagreeing with male to female transgender folks playing women's sports does not equate to me not giving a damn about them. I also give a damn about naturally born female athletes and I think the should be allowed to play what they like on their own.

If this is such a big deal establish separate competitions, which I said I would support.

That said, I am glad that even the sport you coach allows trans individuals who have not gone through puberty to play in the female category, because, you know...science.

I think you should read more carefully the article on male to female transgender folks and their relationship with Rugby Union.

Lots of science in there there.

Transgender Guidelines | World Rugby

World Rugby guidelines on transgender.

www.world.rugby

Also happy that you live in a province that doesn't arbitrarily decide to carpet bans things like puberty blockers.

I believe parents should decide what is best for their kids, not a Doc, not the Gov, not you and not I.

Segregation instead of reasonable accommodation.

1950s America would be proud.

You are unable to remove your emotions from any topic aren't you ? You have to be inflammatory and accusatory. This is why people don't enjoy engaging with you. I hope you are a better person in real life.

 

[Altair]

Not everyone in life can be accommodated.

Not everyone, yes.

In fact, humanity has a long history of not accomodating certain groups.

Jews.

Blacks.

Native Americans.

Armenians.

The Tutsi.

Homosexuals.

Like I said before, don't let the door hit you on the way out if playing sports is so critical.

Haha

I use sport as an analog. It's relatively straightforward, compared to more complicated issues surrounding this problematic legislation.

And even with this most simple of issues, how does a trans kid play sports under this legislation, the answer is get fucked.

It lays very bare how much people, in general, don't give a damn about trans people. And as long as that is laid bare, we can all accept that Alberta and every other jurisdiction passing legislation like this actively don't care or outright hate trans individuals.

 

[Altair]

Me disagreeing with male to female transgender folks playing women's sports does not equate to me not giving a damn about them. I also give a damn about naturally born female athletes and I think the should be allowed to play what they like on their own.

Lets see

If this is such a big deal establish separate competitions, which I said I would support.



I think you should read more carefully the article on male to female transgender folks and their relationship with Rugby Union.

Transgender women who transitioned pre-puberty and have not experienced the biological effects of testosterone during puberty and adolescence can play women's rugby (subject to confirmation of medical treatment and the timing thereof)

What am I missing here?

Trans kid, age 10, takes puberty blockers, does not have male puberty, can play women's Rugby.

Something Nova Scotia has a path to, and Alberta doesn't.

Again, what am I missing here?

Lots of science in there there.

Transgender Guidelines | World Rugby

World Rugby guidelines on transgender.

www.world.rugby

And I agree with the science. Let kids have puberty blockers, and if they transition later when old enough to make the decision, not have so many aspects of their life blocked from them due to haven been forced to go through puberty.

I believe parents should decide what is best for their kids, not a Doc, not the Gov, not you and not I.

I think parents kids and doctors have a role the play and the government should defer to those groups.

You are unable to remove your emotions from any topic aren't you ? You have to be inflammatory and accusatory. This is why people don't enjoy engaging with you. I hope you are a better person in real life.

I really, viscerally, dislike casual discrimination.

I get that post puberty trans females especially have many issues due to puberty essentially making them males physically. There is no way to level that playing field, or to change the base structure of what is physically a male.

But to then ban the easiest way to accomodate that, and force individuals who may not want to be the gender they were at birth, forcing their bodies to undergo changes that can never be fully reversed, while throwing laws and rules at them. I view discriminating agaisnt them for something those who make the rules force them to do as the height of hypocrisy.

And then to wrap it under the guise of "protecting" children. These same kids who may be up to 72 percent more likely to kill themselves, or at least attempt to.

Yet, somehow, I'm inflammatory.

Yes, I suppose we should watch on politely with hands folded across our laps as governments like Alberta try their very best to erase trans individuals from public spaces, public life, public sports, public schools and society at large either via migration or increased rates of suicide, and simply meekly voice our discomfort, if that.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Lets see


What am I missing here?

Trans kid, age 10, takes puberty blockers, does not have male puberty, can play women's Rugby.

Something Nova Scotia has a path to, and Alberta doesn't.

Again, what am I missing here?

And I agree with the science. Let kids have puberty blockers, and if they transition later when old enough to make the decision, not have so many aspects of their life blocked from them due to haven been forced to go through puberty.

I think parents kids and doctors have a role the play and the government should defer to those groups.

I really, viscerally, dislike casual discrimination.

I get that post puberty trans females especially have many issues due to puberty essentially making them males physically. There is no way to level that playing field, or to change the base structure of what is physically a male.

But to then ban the easiest way to accomodate that, and force individuals who may not want to be the gender they were at birth, forcing their bodies to undergo changes that can never be fully reversed, while throwing laws and rules at them. I view discriminating agaisnt them for something those who make the rules force them to do as the height of hypocrisy.

And then to wrap it under the guise of "protecting" children. These same kids who may be up to 72 percent more likely to kill themselves, or at least attempt to.

Yet, somehow, I'm inflammatory.

Yes, I suppose we should watch on politely with hands folded across our laps as governments like Alberta try their very best to erase trans individuals from public spaces, public life, public sports, public schools and society at large either via migration or increased rates of suicide, and simply meekly voice our discomfort, if that.

I have nothing more to say to you.

 

[Altair]

I have nothing more to say to you.

You will miss the substance you've brought to this issue .

 

[MilEME09]

Perhaps if this debate will continue it should get it's own thread?

 

[PuckChaser]

Perhaps if this debate will continue it should get it's own thread?

That thread was a trainwreck and got locked, it's not getting reopened. The discussion has a nexus to the Alberta government's policies so we can keep the dumpster fire contained in one spot.