All Things AB Separatism (split fm Liberal Minority Government 2025 - ???)

[Jarnhamar]

if you want what Quebec has be smarter and a bit more sophisticated.

What does Quebec have that other provinces could have if they were smarter and a bit more sophisticated?

 

[Remius]

What does Quebec have that other provinces could have if they were smarter and a bit more sophisticated?

They have a federal party that uses the system to its advantage in conjunction with its provincial government. They’ve been doing it for quite some time. In a weird way, the Bloc has shown QC that federalism can work.

They set up their own provincial police force, the QPP, they have their own income tax system and civil code. Most of which is universally accepted in that province as it is mostly a homogenous group (not quite but close).

Alberta has some internal disagreements on all of those things but all of which could be achieved. The CPP debate there highlights that.

Now to be fair, they’ve had time, history, geography and cultural aspects that differ from Alberta and likely contributes to their situation.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Myth.

I guess I should've said Equalization Payments. Otherwise you've got me confused. All these examples have those Quebec EQ payments in the billions. Are you saying those figures are wrong? You'll have to explain like your talking to a 15 year old

 

[Remius]

I guess I should've said Equalization Payments. Otherwise you've got me confused. All these examples have those Quebec EQ payments in the billions. Are you saying those figures are wrong? You'll have to explain like your talking to a 15 year old
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You said all those billions came from Alberta. I posted a fact sheet that explains why that isn’t the case.

Quebec is certainly the province that benefits the most from transfer payments on a per capita basis. No question. Something like 11 to 13 billion on average if I recall.

Alberta is certainly the one that pays the most on a per capita basis but it is not the biggest gross contributor.

So taken from below, the total program is in about 20 to 22 billion a year. Alberta sent 2.1 billion getting nothing back. Quebec sent 5.3 Bn or so but got it back plus 6 or 7 more (which certainly did not all come from Alberta alone). It actually comes from the general revenue which, we, as Canadians all pay into.


Federal Revenue Highlights by Province (2023 Data)

• Ontario ($7.35B): Consistently the largest contributor due to high population and economic activity.
• British Columbia ($2.77B): High per capita revenue generator.
• Alberta ($2.12B): Major contributor, though revenue fluctuates with oil prices and corporate profits.
• Quebec
  ($5.29B):
  Significant contributor in absolute terms
  .
• • Saskatchewan ($591M): Varies based on natural resource economic cycles.
  • Manitoba ($777M):.
  • Atlantic Provinces: Generally lower per capita federal revenue.
    • Newfoundland and Labrador: $311M.
    • New Brunswick: $529M.
    • Prince Edward Island: $111M.
  • Territories: Nunavut ($9.6M), Northwest Territories ($14.8M), Yukon ($20.7M).

 

[JLB50]

What about worse case scenario.

84% of Alberta votes, 92% in favor of separating. Canadian court says no way hoser. Alberta responds get bent eh and installs armed border guards at BC and Sask border crossings. Albertan Armed Forces go on high alert. Alberta says take the North West territories or US route to by pass them if we don't like it.

Goofy fantasy senario but the CAF also just did fantasy senario planning against US invasion if I'm not mistaken.

And the First Nations in the so-called new nation of Alberta start putting up roadblocks with their armed border guards to keep The Albertans out. Everybody ends up hating everybody.

 

[brihard]

Quebec is certainly the province that benefits the most from transfer payments on a per capita basis. No question. Something like 11 to 13 billion on average if I recall.

Minor quibble, and I expect it’s just a brain fart on your part- Quebec receives the most overall due to population size, but once you go per capita, NS, NB, and PEI all receive more than twice what Quebec receives per person.

 

[Jarnhamar]

And the First Nations in the so-called new nation of Alberta start putting up roadblocks with their armed border guards to keep The Albertans out. Everybody ends up hating everybody.

That's an easy fix. Give them a consultation fee, throw in some other fees for whatever, and let them actually own land from the reserves.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

You said all those billions came from Alberta. I posted a fact sheet that explains why that isn’t the case.

Quebec is certainly the province that benefits the most from transfer payments on a per capita basis. No question. Something like 11 to 13 billion on average if I recall.

Alberta is certainly the one that pays the most on a per capita basis but it is not the biggest gross contributor.

So taken from below, the total program is in about 20 to 22 billion a year. Alberta sent 2.1 billion getting nothing back. Quebec sent 5.3 Bn or so but got it back plus 6 or 7 more (which certainly did not all come from Alberta alone). It actually comes from the general revenue which, we, as Canadians all pay into.


Federal Revenue Highlights by Province (2023 Data)

• Ontario ($7.35B): Consistently the largest contributor due to high population and economic activity.
• British Columbia ($2.77B): High per capita revenue generator.
• Alberta ($2.12B): Major contributor, though revenue fluctuates with oil prices and corporate profits.
• Quebec
  ($5.29B):
  Significant contributor in absolute terms
  .
• • Saskatchewan ($591M): Varies based on natural resource economic cycles.
  • Manitoba ($777M):.
  • Atlantic Provinces: Generally lower per capita federal revenue.
    • Newfoundland and Labrador: $311M.
    • New Brunswick: $529M.
    • Prince Edward Island: $111M.
  • Territories: Nunavut ($9.6M), Northwest Territories ($14.8M), Yukon ($20.7M).

OK, gotcha now. Tanks.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Minor quibble, and I expect it’s just a brain fart on your part- Quebec receives the most overall due to population size, but once you go per capita, NS, NB, and PEI all receive more than twice what Quebec receives per person.

Due to population size? Ontario has roughly 42.3% of Canada's population to Quebec’s population accounting for 22.55 percent of the country’s population. Sometimes Ontario has received $0 for equalization payments.

So, again, I'm confused.

 

[brihard]

Due to population size? Ontario has roughly 42.3% of Canada's population to Quebec’s population accounting for 22.55 percent of the country’s population. Sometimes Ontario has received $0 for equalization payments.

So, again, I'm confused.

“Quebec receives $x total and $y per Quebecer” versus “Nova Scotia receives $x total and $y per Nova Scotian”

Quebec receives a larger total but the three Atlantic provinces I named receive more than twice as much per person. Remius erred in saying Quebec receives the most per capita.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

“Quebec receives $x total and $y per Quebecer” versus “Nova Scotia receives $x total and $y per Nova Scotian”

Quebec receives a larger total but the three Atlantic provinces I named receive more than twice as much per person. Remius erred in saying Quebec receives the most per capita.

So how does this work against Ontario? Given this standard should Ontario not get at least twice what Quebec gets, by capita? Or am I still missing something?

 

[Remius]

So how does this work against Ontario? Given this standard should Ontario not get at least twice what Quebec gets, by capita? Or am I still missing something?

It’s a bit of a complicated formula (one i admittedly don’t have a full grasp of) but Ontario has a higher income generation per capita than QC (which is below the national average). That and its population means Quebec gets a higher total amount but it is spread over the size of its population so they get less per person than other provinces.

 

[mariomike]

My widowed mother, sister and brother in law and their family live in Alberta.

These 54 pages remind me of words of wisdom from Kat Stevens R.I.P.,

Do you live in Alberta? No? Diiiiiiiiissss......Missed!

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It’s a bit of a complicated formula (one i admittedly don’t have a full grasp of) but Ontario has a higher income generation per capita than QC (which is below the national average). That and its population means Quebec gets a higher total amount but it is spread over the size of its population so they get less per person than other provinces.

Cheers

 

[PrairieFella]

Turncoats, sellouts, useful idiots. Im sure you can come with more. Then there is the Quebec empathy tossed in. Suggesting Canada is under economic attack but ignoring Ottawa’s economic attack on Alberta since Trudeau senior.

You're doing awesome keep going.

The persecution fetish is bizarre. Im clearly talking about seppies, who I hold in contempt for the reasons I said before. Nothing against Albertans writ large.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I think Quebec is intent on separation before Alberta. They are under pressure. If they don't manage to start negotiating first, much of their plan will be contingent on the deal Canada makes with another separatist province.

Whatever the case, I don't know how Quebec will survive separation without the billions of transfer payment from Alberta.

I recently listened to a podcast that expressed Quebec is being demographically changed. Immigrants more likely to vote for their adopted country are becoming a more important voting block than the bog standard Quebecois.

I suspect this probably their last kick at the can...

Quebec can't go it alone, they can't survive now without Alberta's financial injections. Same with the Maritimes. If the Alberta taps closed it would decimate the standard of living our here.

 

[Remius]

I recently listened to a podcast that expressed Quebec is being demographically changed. Immigrants more likely to vote for their adopted country are becoming a more important voting block than the bog standard Quebecois.

True. It is also because the younger generations don’t have the same level of militant action that the older one has. Quebec Separatists are dying off.

I suspect this probably their last kick at the can...

I think they already had their kick at the can.

Quebec can't go it alone, they can't survive now without Alberta's financial injections.

I’ve shown above why that is a myth. Alberta sends just over 2 Billion to equalization payments. The feds do the injection with tax revenue collected from the whole country. Quebec gets around 12bn but also sends around 5Bn. So they would get 7 Bn less.

Basically QC’s standard of living is likely to go down without Federal Injection but hardly not survivable. It has the 2nd largest GDP in Canada. As I mentioned, ANY province trying to go alone will suffer economically and will see a lower standard of living.

Same with the Maritimes. If the Alberta taps closed it would decimate the standard of living out here.

Decimate? not quite unless you mean a literal 10% reduction of the plan. It would however change the equalization amounts spread amongst the rest Alberta contributes just over 2Bn. Of a 22 Bn dollar program. The biggest contributors are Ontario, QC and BC then Alberta. So the program would lose less than 10% of its funding (which can actually be increased). In fact it would probably mean more money or the same for the maritimes once they recalculate equalization without Alberta in the mix.