All Things CAF and Covid/ Covid Vaccine [merged]

[Halifax Tar]

For what its worth I concur with your opinion.

We entrust the lives of 30 soldiers to officers sometimes as young as 22 years old whose orders may put their lives at risk, yet the CDS cannot order you to get vaccinated.

To those of you who are fighting this, please release.

The irony to me is we had trusted them with that combat/operational responsibility but we don't trust them to judge what's best to inject into their own body.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Down south. The agenda is starting to fall apart. The SC is starting the case. So it will be interesting.

Federal Judge Temporarily Blocks Navy Vaccine Mandate for 35 Challengers | National Review

‘The Navy servicemembers in this case seek to vindicate the very freedoms they have sacrificed so much to protect,’ the judge wrote.

www.nationalreview.com

What agenda exactly?

 

[SupersonicMax]

The irony to me is we had trusted them with that combat/operational responsibility but don't trust them to judge what's best to inject into their own body.

For one, they are trained to lead in combat/operations. Not so much in virology and public health measures.

 

[Halifax Tar]

For one, they are trained to lead in combat/operations. Not so much in virology and public health measures.

So now one has to be an expert to decide what gets put into their body ?

Good god! I need to start growing marijuana and brewing whiskey lol

In all seriousness I see your point. I just see the situation as contradictory for multiple angles is all.

 

[dapaterson]

You brew beer.

You distill whiskey.

 

[Halifax Tar]

You brew beer.

You distill whiskey.

I'm on my phone and the .gifs won't work... But I'm facepalming myself...

Merci lol

 

[dapaterson]

As your punishment, you must drink a beer, then savour a glass of whiskey.

 

[SupersonicMax]

So now one has to be an expert to decide what gets put into their body ?

Good god! I need to start growing marijuana and brewing whiskey lol

In all seriousness I see your point. I just see the situation as contradictory for multiple angles is all.

To decide? No. People can be stupid and not follow advice from those with an education and experience that is relevant. Just like en embeded reporter would free to put themselves in harm’s way. But it would be stupid to do so when against the advise of the commander on the ground.

 

[brihard]

So now one has to be an expert to decide what gets put into their body ?

Not at all. Regarding that, anyone gets to make as uninformed a choice as they see fit- it just may have consequences.

You DO have to be an expert to decide what the appropriate medical standards and requirements for military service and deployability are, though. No soldier was ever consulted on whether they should require Measles, Mumps and Rubella vaccines in order to satisfy medical requirements either.

CAF says you must be vaccinated against COVID (or has an approved accommodation on legal grounds) in order to serve as a member. So you can absolutely choose not to get vaccinated, just that in doing so you’re also choosing not to continue serving CAF. Whether you have a Master’s in Biology, or you simply watch some sketchy YouTube videos while taking a dump, that choice is totally up to you.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Not at all. Regarding that, anyone gets to make as uninformed a choice as they see fit- it just may have consequences.

You DO have to be an expert to decide what the appropriate medical standards and requirements for military service and deployability are, though. No soldier was ever consulted on whether they should require Measles, Mumps and Rubella vaccines in order to satisfy medical requirements either.

CAF says you must be vaccinated against COVID (or has an approved accommodation on legal grounds) in order to serve as a member. So you can absolutely choose not to get vaccinated, just that in doing so you’re also choosing not to continue serving CAF. Whether you have a Master’s in Biology, or you simply watch some sketchy YouTube videos while taking a dump, that choice is totally up to you.

Thanks tips.

 

[brihard]

Thanks tips.

You’re welcome.

 

[Bluebulldog]

Not at all. Regarding that, anyone gets to make as uninformed a choice as they see fit- it just may have consequences.

Ah. There's the rub.

What much of the issue is, both CF and Federal service, is that this is one of the first times, in a very long period, where there is a very direct ( and stated), consequence of action.

For the last few generations there have always been implied penalties, and a ton of process...to a generation that by-and-large had empty threats made by parents, and other persons in authority. This is likely the first time for many, where it has been explicitly spelled out. x+y=Z, and many don't like it. The online tantrums, and seeking confirmation bias to justify action, has been a go-to for far too long.

I've watched a former friend ( member), drag his feet, and is now facing a career ending decision. He has chosen this hill to die on.

I envy his conviction, and admire him for his principle.....if not his intelligence.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Ah. There's the rub.

What much of the issue is, both CF and Federal service, is that this is one of the first times, in a very long period, where there is a very direct ( and stated), consequence of action.

For the last few generations there have always been implied penalties, and a ton of process...to a generation that by-and-large had empty threats made by parents, and other persons in authority. This is likely the first time for many, where it has been explicitly spelled out. x+y=Z, and many don't like it. The online tantrums, and seeking confirmation bias to justify action, has been a go-to for far too long.

I've watched a former friend ( member), drag his feet, and is now facing a career ending decision. He has chosen this hill to die on.

I envy his conviction, and admire him for his principle.....if not his intelligence.

For full context, I am vaxxed and will get what ever the CAF prescribes to me. Not so much out of altruism or belief in the cause, more out of pragmatism and real world facts of life. Just being honest here, and I don't think I am alone.

Carrying on, I'm a CPO2, I fully understand and support the issuance of orders, and I get where my role sits in that system. My conundrum comes with where does that end. Some would argue at the border of lawful orders and not. Its probably the right line.

A persons body is the a deeper issue IMHO. Taking administrative action on people because they do not wish to inject a foreign substance into their body is a point I waiver on. I just see it as coercive to hold peoples livelihoods and professional lives over their heads for this. I've done numerous deployments and I am on my second immunization book. I even turned down malarial meds on my AFG deployments.

It seems all too Orwellian go this route. Maybe going through this on deployment and in NS means I am lacking some perspective of the actual threat this poses. We've done well here, and if I lived in Tor, Mtl or Van maybe I would have a different position.

I am currently on a year long French course so I haven't had to experience dealing with a subordinate who choses not to get vaccinated. As always I would carry out the direction given too me if I was in such a situation. And I would ensure my subordinate understands the repercussions of their decision, I may even have sympathy for them.

Its a strange divided world we're in now. Just look at this site, while there have been many arguments on here before they seems to be getting more and more divisive and I can see our membership moving into camps. I don't like it.

I don't know, verbal ejection over lol

 

[Bluebulldog]

For full context, I am vaxxed and will get what ever the CAF prescribes to me. Not so much out of altruism or belief in the cause, more out of pragmatism and real world facts of life.

As are many.

A persons body is the a deeper issue IMHO. Taking administrative action on people because they do not wish to inject a foreign substance into their body is a point I waiver on. I just see it as coercive to hold peoples livelihoods and professional lives over their heads for this.

But it has always been thus.

I don't view it as holding their livelihoods, nor professional lives "over their heads". Perhaps that's where I'm wrong.

There is a very definitive requirement, and the consequence of inaction has been outlined. Children need to be vaccinated in order to attend publicly funded school, under our social contract. Failure to do so....there are options. Private schools, private tutors, homeschool.

You're an MSE Op? Great, there is a ton of work available civvy side.....similar for other trades ( albeit, many opportunities are reduced due to employers wishing to have staff vaxxed as well).

As Brihard, so eloquently put it, an unvaxxed person certainly has the right to seek, and maintain employment, but the requirements of the CAF and the Federal Service are now beyond their reach.

 

[Halifax Tar]

As are many.



But it has always been thus.

I don't view it as holding their livelihoods, nor professional lives "over their heads". Perhaps that's where I'm wrong.

There is a very definitive requirement, and the consequence of inaction has been outlined. Children need to be vaccinated in order to attend publicly funded school, under our social contract. Failure to do so....there are options. Private schools, private tutors, homeschool.

You're an MSE Op? Great, there is a ton of work available civvy side.....similar for other trades ( albeit, many opportunities are reduced due to employers wishing to have staff vaxxed as well).

As Brihard, so eloquently put it, an unvaxxed person certainly has the right to seek, and maintain employment, but the requirements of the CAF and the Federal Service are now beyond their reach.

You're preaching to the choir. I'm just in the choir stroking my beard in contemplation is all.

 

[Winds]

Could that just be a formalized letter, and sent out to the remaining hold outs, both in the CAF and across the Federal Service?

Well said.

Why send said letter to the Federal Public Service as well?

It is one thing for CAF members to have to meet certain medical requirements and to follow orders, it is quite another to fire public servants that work entirely from home because of their medical decisions.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems statements like this are rooted in disdain/hate for a certain subset of the population... a real great way to make policy.

People keep saying that there is the choice to go work somewhere else but the federal government is encouraging all employers to also put in place similar workplace mandates.

 

[Remius]

You're preaching to the choir. I'm just in the choir stroking my beard in contemplation is all.

That’s the thing. I would oppose the gvt forcing people to take a vaccine or anything else in regards to their bodies.

Same with abortion, end of life choices and most things people choose or don’t choose for their own bodies.

But I support how society and organizations can make certain criteria to be a full participant. As long as the person can opt in or out of said choices when it comes to their own bodies.

 

[Remius]

Why send said letter to the Federal Public Service as well?

It is one thing for CAF members to have to meet certain medical requirements and to follow orders, it is quite another to fire public servants that work entirely from home because of their medical decisions.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems statements like this are rooted in disdain/hate for a certain subset of the population... a real great way to make policy.

People keep saying that there is the choice to go work somewhere else but the federal government is encouraging all employers to also put in place similar workplace mandates.

Encouraging and forcing are two different things. Btw the private sector started asking for mandatory vaccines well before the gvt did or before the gvt asked them to.

 

[Bluebulldog]

Why send said letter to the Federal Public Service as well?

It is one thing for CAF members to have to meet certain medical requirements and to follow orders, it is quite another to fire public servants that work entirely from home because of their medical decisions.

Because the same reasoning applies.

It is a bold assumption that ALL public servants "work entirely from home". It is also fallacy to expect that their working environment will be to do so indefinitely. The employer has the right to dictate how their work environment should operate, and that they ensure the safety of those within that environment.

it seems statements like this are rooted in disdain/hate for a certain subset of the population... a real great way to make policy.

Not at all. You've made a couple of assumptions in your statement.

Encouraging and forcing are two different things. Btw the private sector started asking for mandatory vaccines well before the gvt did or before the gvt asked them to.

In fact, by extension any vendors doing business on Federal Sites ( Including CAF facilities) need to be in compliance with vaccination mandates.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Setting aside the CAF did public servants have to prove their immunization record as a condition of employment prior to COVID ?

Honest question.