All Things Combat Diver (merged)

[Sapper6]

Slim,

In my opinion, JTF-2 has the maritime (re: underwater) mandate to execute some of the tasks you speak about.  If Canada ever develops a Tier 2 force, and there has been talk about it, then maybe they would need combat divers with expanded skills to be part of the operational grouping.

sigh.

Until that happens though, I believe we will continue to operate with the doctrine and equipment we have.  Combat divers will just continue to be professional and believe that good, hard and creative training will be the groundwork for any operational tasking that might come by.  We can't afford to become complacent.

Merry Christmas everyone!  :-[

 

[Sapper6]

Sad face was supposed to go after the "sigh".... Christmas is supposed to be a happy time!

[that teaches me to use those bloody emicons...]

S6

 

[Sapper6]

Chris,

There are a few combat divers on these boards.  I'm sure either Diver409 or myself can answer your questions.

Chimo6

 

[Scott]

Merging this with other thread on Combat Divers

 

[Diver409]

Spr Earl,

     Not that I would want to take from your lengthy stay in the forces or the accumulation of your knowledge base as an engineer...but you really need to lighten up on the offense taken in regards to comments made about reservists / 'rentals'.   Speaking as a former infantry 'half-man' I can honestly say that while I get a kick out of slagging my reservist brothers from time to time, I always make it known that I am not only kidding, but that I am well aware that I don't know anyone who can dispute the existence of an engagement, war or battle that was ever fought and won without the use of reservists.   Without the integration of reservists into full military actions it is my opinion that the experience base in the reserves would cease to exist and you would see alot more 90/10 regiments being formed just so you could be assured of a proper training cadre.   No one (intelligently) disputes the need for reserves, or argues the reasons behind the regular use of them on tour...it is merely a light hearted slagging from time to time over the fact that they have not made the full-time commitment.   Those pers out there who actually have a personal grudge against the reserves because of the inexperience, seemingly improper training or lack of commitment witnessed, can also think of a time when they have witnessed keen reservists...as well as thud-f..k regulars.   The fact is, there are just too many reservists who, from my own experience, have a tendency to say 'f..k it I'm outa here' when the going gets tough...because they know they still have a separate life back home.   The 'I don't need this reg force jarhead bullshit' attitude is far more prevalent that it appears some are willing to admit.
     As this pertains to reservists as combat divers...I think the topic has been discussed it vast detail.   Unless you can find someone who is a reservist, has never been a reg and can actually say they are a qualified combat diver (who is known by other combat divers for reasons of credibility)...then I'd have to say the reasons why they don't exist have been spelled out.   You'd be surprised at how closely related the reasons against; a) qualifying reservist combat divers, and b) giving actual Canadian combat divers re-breathers and underwater weaponry, are.   From my level it appears to still be money and dedicating resources.   With the size and mandate of our army, only time will tell if either will change.
     So...lighten up Spr.Earl...no one slags an engineer like another engineer and if you continue to expose the soft under belly of offense...the sharks will continue to take bites.   Just be thankful you're not in the diving world...mudsharks strike harder and faster when they see blood...hahaha.

#409...Bubbles Up!

 

[Sapper6]

CHIMO 409 CHIMO!

237

Bubbles Up!

 

[Spr.Earl]

Spr Earl,
 So...lighten up Spr.Earl...no one slags an engineer like another engineer and if you continue to expose the soft under belly of offense...the sharks will continue to take bites.   Just be thankful you're not in the diving world...mudsharks strike harder and faster when they see blood...hahaha.

#409...Bubbles Up!

Touche

 

[Sea-dog]

I am new to this very nice site. I am an ex-navy diver,started as a ships diver and later qualified to the ranks of combat divers.
Combat Divers is a unique group and I do believe that they qualify as a "Elite Force".
The training of combat divers over lap the diving training given to Special Forces Divers in several areas,both units use close-circuit O2 diving equipment and is trained in underwater sabotage,demolitions and reconnaissance.

One of the main differences is in the area of operation,naval combat divers operate mostly under water and very seldom leave the water,while Special Forces divers,often venture futher than the beach-head and conduct a variety of mission far in land.

There is often confusion about the term Special Forces (Commando / SEAL type units ) ,Naval combat divers and the term Special Operations (Spec. Ops. )
Special Forces operate under the umbrella of special operations,however naval combat divers are often called upon to work in conjunction with Special forces specially during indiction and extraction of these forces using either submarines or other naval surface vessels.
Combat Divers are often part of the integrated combined forces used in support of Special Forces during Special Operations.

They are very flexible and in peace time will operate as engineers,construction divers,salvage teams, air and sea rescue ,but also play a very important role conducting explosive ordnance disposal ( IEOD ) as clearance divers to safe guard naval and sea ports in compliance with the new ISPS regulations against terrorism.

 

[SprCForr]

???

 

[Sapper6]

I am new to this very nice site. I am an ex-navy diver,started as a ships diver and later qualified to the ranks of combat divers.
Combat Divers is a unique group and I do believe that they qualify as a "Elite Force".
The training of combat divers over lap the diving training given to Special Forces Divers in several areas,both units use close-circuit O2 diving equipment and is trained in underwater sabotage,demolitions and reconnaissance.

Sea-dog,

I think you may be mixing up "combat divers" with "clearance divers" ?   Being ex-Navy and reading about your experience suggests that you may be referring to Clearance Divers.

Maybe it is our Canadian upbringing or just being humble, but we have never called our combat/clearance divers - elite forces.   I suppose the closest thing we would have to elite forces is JTF-2 which includes divers.

S6

 

[Sea-dog]

Hi S6, I am not trying to be anything but humble. I am ex South African and during my career,the terrorist ,the bombs and the missions were real.
I do not apologize for being proud !

I cannot speak for the Canadian Naval Divers, I just wanted to impress upon you that there are other Naval forces that operate slightly different. I still emphasize, I operated as a member of Special Operations in support of Special Forces during indiction and extraction of these forces deep inside enemy terrorties.

In the 70's Naval Clearance Diving Instructors were on loan to train Special Forces Divers in the use of Close Circuit O2 diving equipment and on some missions also accompanied these forces as part of a Naval support group.
I sincerely hope that the Canadian Naval divers are as proud of their units as I am of mine

 

[Sapper6]

Hi S6, I am not trying to be anything but humble. I am ex South African and during my career,the terrorist ,the bombs and the missions were real.

Sea-dog,

Had no idea that you were coming from a South African perspective.  As this is a Army.Ca site, I assumed that you were a Canadian Naval type and just wanted to confirm our terminology....  I meant no malice.

BTW all Canadian Army and Navy Divers are and will remain a proud bunch.  Chimo! Bubbles Up!

S6

 

[joe]

My first post so hopefully this'll work out. I've read all the posts here and the comments are all very familiar and interesting. It's great to see the interest by so many out there. Just a few comments with regard to what I've read (no particular order):

We are Engineers. Anyone with an SF mind set should be looking for a Navy SEAL/JTF2 etc website. Engineer tasks in support of the land forces commander in and around a water environment. Mine/obstacle clearance or breach (two completely different things), mine/obstacle emplacement, minor u/w construction, search and recovery, and recce are the major tasks, though there are others.

For those who may be unaware the lead agency representing Army diving is the Army Dive Centre (ADC) in CFB Gagetown located within the lines of the Engineer School. The ADC reports to the Cmdt CFSME, and is responsive to Director Land Force Readiness (DLFR) and Land Forces Doctrine and Training System (LFDTS). The ADC is responsible to those orgs for the development of diving doctrine, tactiques, techniques and procedures (TTPs) - read "drills" - coord of Army diving administration, equipment trials and advising higher HQ on what eqpt to purchase to support our needs in fulfilling diver tasks, etc

The ADC is also the lead Army agency which deals with the Director of Diving Safety and the Navy, both of which are the "heavy hitters" in the CF dive community. The ADC runs initial combat diver and combat diver supervisor training in Gagetown, and it is responsible for the Army's annual collective diving training exercise, Ex ROGUISH BUOY (happening this year 24 Apr-14 May).

Re-breathers...been hearing about this one since I was qualified. Bottom line: that eqpt has been identified in our doctrine. Means we are authorized to use it should the balloon go up. Real time however, at $10-25K per set, the need to completely change the dive course training plans, the maintenance issues, and more importantly, the significant amount of training time required to maint a diver's currency on the kit (we have enough of a time getting guys out for a CABA dive) those are what is mainly precluding us from utilizing rebreathers. That said, there are a lot of other "ducks" to get lined up first. Training, eqpt, admin, small unit exchanges, CF air standards, new courses, etc. Once that's all done, then rebreathers can get looked at. One step at a time.

Anyone who is interested in becoming a combat diver? It's easy. Become a combat engineer, do your time in the unit for a year or so, apply for the first diver preliminary course your unit runs, suck up the worst two weeks of your life, then attend a 10-11 week course in Halifax and Gagetown where the focus is on training you to be a diver (not to beast you), and you're good to go. Welcome to the team!

Dive Army!

 

[54/102 CEF]

If this is the Joe I know we need some PICS and STORIES for CDAC site

Signed

Your CDAC Site OPI

If you`ve not see the Combat Diver Website and or are a Combat Diver please drop into

www.donlowconcrete.com/CDAC

 

[joe]

I feel the guilt and I'm on it.

 

[Sapper Bloggins]

Hello to all Combat Divers, past and present. Keep at it
Bubbles Up! AIRBORNE.
#247

cheers boys.

 

[McGowan]

off topic, but by dad was a combat diver in Korea and part of Vietnam/Loas action... seemed to like it, but he was telling me about a time when they placed explosives on a bridge, used by N.Korea to transport good or something...anyways so he blew the bridge, then that night a train actually drove off (derailed), and i used a week or two later when the NATO act was inforced in that area of Korea. My dad had to remove the bodies from the train wreck for i.d..but i can remember him telling me about bringing the bodies on to deck, and having them just fall to peices....sorry this is off topic, but just something to post about combative diving

 

[Sapper Bloggins]

In response to Sapper6: orig. post 28 Nov/04~

This raises the question of ' Do we really need them?'

The strategic and operational impact is clearly out of proportion to our(your) numbers.

The Army needs to recognize the potential of this potent asset and for crying out loud, employ it in a credible manner.

 

[Sapper6]

In response to Sapper6: orig. post 28 Nov/04~

This raises the question of ' Do we really need them?'

The strategic and operational impact is clearly out of proportion to our(your) numbers.

The Army needs to recognize the potential of this potent asset and for crying out loud, employ it in a credible manner.

Sapper Bloggins,

This is what I like to see!  The whole point of me starting this thread (it has been combined with others since) was to elicit debate.  I believe that we still have a role to play in the Canadian Army, which includes "Transformation"; however, we must be realistic that the original purpose for creating Army (Combat) Divers in the late 60s was to have stand-by divers available when the M113s were swimming - it was a safety issue.  I personally would like to see combat divers used more on operations other than domestic; however, there must be a will from both the senior military leadership and our government.

I encourage all that are interested to continue posting your opinions as I think we can never assume this capability will continue.  We too need to "transform" lest be struck off the order of battle.

Sapper6

 

[Sea-dog]

I believe that no military strategy designed to defend or protect Canada will be successfull with out including some form of military/navy combat divers,to address the growing threat of underwater sabotage and IEOD's.

It's therefore not a question of IF, but rather of how such a force will be constructed to be intergrated as a part of the new consolidated Canadian Defence Force.

It is not necessary to model these force on any existing forces ,but rather to tailer a specific force to meet the unique defence requirements of Canada.
Such of force can be a consolidated force compromising of several dissiplines ,Sappers ,Salvage and Clearance divers.This will give these forces flexability to be easily intergrated into any other combat group.
Such a force can then easily be fragmented and tailored at short notice, to not only meet any threat, but to operate in support of a multitude of defence combination.

The threat is constantly changing, calling for a force type with extreme flexability to combat a multitude of threat combinations. In many previous conflicts ,the initial attack was only the cover for a much larger and often completely different threat.
This tested the security services to the maximum,as they responded with one force only to find on arrival a new and completely different threat.

The answers to the problems facing us to day,is complex and difficult.It is only with real imagination supported by real-time constant evaluation of conditions in the field ,that we will be able to face these problems successfully.