All Things Combat Diver (merged)

[392]

I see the extras our divers are getting is a must as they may become a core of a new broadened breed of Diver as we don't have SEALS,SBS   etc. we must keep these skills up in the Corps

Agreed. The problem is that the Corps needs to start fully supporting the monster it created in the 60's, and give us the tools / training / funds we require to get on with it. I can say for sure the problem doesn't lie at the individual diver level, it resides higher up with those that either feel scorned because they were passed over during or prior to their prelim, or they just plain don't understand the need for Army Divers. For the most part, I would say it's the latter.

Like most other "needs" in the CF, and the Army in particular, the light is usually seen after it is too late, and we have to play catch up 
I will say though, that the creation of the Army Dive Centre at CFSME was a great idea as it gives the Combat Diver community a centralized voice to the Army, but until it separates itself completely from the college of knowledge and gets the required funding & manpower, it's gonna have a hard time bringing us into the 21st century and convincing the Army of what we already know and have been saying for years and years.
From what I have read and heard lately, someone somewhere's ears have perked and they are starting to lean in our direction, but until I hear "from the horse's mouth" I don't want to get my hopes up 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

The Navy has it's diver's but they don't do beach recce's,clearance etc..
I see the extras our divers are getting is a must as they may become a core of a new broadened breed of Diver as we don't have SEALS,SBS  etc. we must keep these skills up in the Corp

Actually they do....not a ships diver but clearance divers do that and more.

 

[392]

Actually they do....not a ships diver but clearance divers do that and more.

I think you might be mistaken - IIRC, there are four subunits a Clearance Diver can be posted to once he/she reaches an FDU:

1) BDR
2) MW
3) Dive Services
4) Trg

From what I do know of CD's, they're more into deep sea stuff and naval mines. At risk of straying out of my lane, I don't think any time is spent on their course teaching land mine warfare nor beach / crossing site recces (which are pretty much on in the same with a couple variations )

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Not so much going ashore and inland but had one of their PO2s inform me of this.

 

[392]

I've worked with Clearance Divers a bit in the past, and never had them mention anything about beach / landing zone recces or clearances. I know they do a lot of EOD type stuff as they progress though the ranks, but I honestly cannot remember any CD talking about going ashore to clear or secure the beach in an amphibious landing type operation. Not saying they've never done it, just saying it's not common dog.

Perhaps Gully or one of his FDU comrades can weigh in here and provide some insight  .....

 

[kj_gully]

I'll happily wade (get it?) into this.... Clearance Divers are self professed experts at everything. During the ( at least my) basic course,  we did conduct some beach surveys, and did some underwater obstacle clearance, but got the impression that the lessons were just picked up from sitting in on Combat diver lectures. That being said, there was (is) the thought that since it is not a typical Navy task ( this is pre-expiditionary force, Rick hillier Canadian marine Corps) that it was sufficient to just hit the basics, and that in true Canadian fashion, if ever called upon, initiative and determination would get the job done. I believe there is some merit to that thinking. Do not forget that there are a fair # of ex soldiers sprinkled in that "Navy" outfit,  most of them ex combat divers, and everyone else is pretty switched on to be selected (save a few slackards, but they usually drift to the airforce). On another note, These high speed low drag divers that the Combat divers want to be exist already in the Army. I don't think there is any reason to duplicate the capability, just drag it into the light so commanders can use it without CDS consultation. Hardcore Seal ops are the realm of JTF. They are gunna be seals, recon, sbs,sas,gsg9,deltaforce,all rolled into one, like it or not for good or bad. They are getting bigger and bigger, soon the whole Army will be JTF support. Go SAR for the action.

Gully

 

[Spr.Earl]

To all the only element we have who can and do Beach Recce,Obstacle Recce,Sub Surface Mine Recce etc. is our Combat Diver we have no other in the Tri Service who can do the same.

Come on Rick,yes the CDS read's this site you have heard what's needed from the bottom of the pyramid.

 

[kj_gully]

;D. Dreamer

 

[Diver409]

It's late troops, so forgive me if this makes me sound like...a bigger idiot.
    Well, now it's down to it.  We've met our fair share of idealists and 'when I get high enough in the ranks to make a change' types and been let down time and again.  It occurs to me while I sit at my desk (yes TC...it's my desk :threat here in Kabul...we face the reoccurring hurdle for our people and our government.  Are we able to cope and willing to accept that we have but only one direction now...it's put up or shut up time again.  Are we, as a country, willing to accept our soldiers earning their deaths in battle and the bloodshed we'll inflict to prevent them?  We as soldiers, have asked for...how long...to be given the chance to play on the same ground as the big kids and now we're going to Kandahar.  A place where they could really use our help, both fighters and populace.  There is no doubt that we have what it takes to prove ourselves worthy and capable...if they'll just allow us to get on with it and stick with it.  We're going to pay for our good deeds down there, no one should be doubting that, but those of us who weren't around before our government got scared and pulled out of harms way because of a little bad press, would like to know if all we have become is the international mop-up team.  Op Apollo showed us, showed everyone, that we'll go where Canada has either forgotten or has never seen us go...over the line in the sand.  Since then, and since ISAF, I have never known Canada to be more behind it's troops so unwaveringly...they've all been so proud and I have never been so appreciative.  This is the next step and Kandahar is the wild west.
    What does this rant have to do with Combat Divers and where they should or could go in the future?  If we can clear this hurdle then we might have a chance to find someone...there has to be someone...who can see their way clear to step up an tell the fat cats to stand aside and let us prove our worth.  To either allow us to expand our mandate as an inclusive formation within the engineers...or to open up that special warfare formation they should never have gotten rid of, and include us in it.  Not only will the battle not stay in the deserts, but they'll not stay off our shores either.  Our special teams may be able to cover the globe, but they can't be everywhere.
    I'm sorry for yet another of my blithering rants, but if we don't have anyone that can make Canada see this is how it is right now, and we need to hold fast and stay our course, then asking them to allow us, as a light weight formation, to expand our role and capabilities...is not exactly going to be well received.  Here's one soldier...crossing his fingers.

 

[Sapper6]

     What does this rant have to do with Combat Divers and where they should or could go in the future?   If we can clear this hurdle then we might have a chance to find someone...there has to be someone...who can see their way clear to step up an tell the fat cats to stand aside and let us prove our worth.   To either allow us to expand our mandate as an inclusive formation within the engineers...or to open up that special warfare formation they should never have gotten rid of, and include us in it.   Not only will the battle not stay in the deserts, but they'll not stay off our shores either.   Our special teams may be able to cover the globe, but they can't be everywhere.

As I have said before, the man to do it was the recent CO of 1 CER.  I have seen first-hand his desire to push Combat Divers to the forefront with the Bde Comd (an Armd officer) to demonstrate their worth.  As an example, he pushed for Ex PALLADIN DIVER which was a combat diver exercise designed to expose the unit's divers to the province of British Columbia and its emergency preparedness plans.  Tasks included bridge pier and ferry site recces, amongst others.  It was a small step but a critical one in my opinion.

Of note, the man I speak of is now G3 of LFWA and the Bde Comd is now Comd LFWA.... we'll see if the divers remain part of any future CONOP planning!

S6 out.

p.s. Anyone see the front cover of the MAPLE LEAF two weeks ago?  COMBAT DIVER!

 

[Calculator Jockey]

Hey that photo was of my other half    He was attached with 1 CER for Ex Roguish Buoy out in Gagetown.

http://www.dnd.ca/site/community/mapleleaf/vol_8/vol8_25/825_full.pdf

 

[Spr.Earl]

Sapper 6 I was in Trail on the last Kootnay Castle when the Dive section from 1 CER attended and they go in some good dive time working with the Chinooks from the Sky Hookers out of Everett laying in some pre-formed concrete for the Civies.

They attempted a night surface swim from point A to B,I was at the pick up point with a one other.We at the pick up were getting quite worried as their projected ETA was not met, when all of a sudden out of the dark they marched in,the current,under tows in the river was so strong they had to came out as the felt it was getting dangerous and they yomped it too us.

Back to Diver 409,I joined the Militia in 76 and have heard and seen all and yes remember all the promises made and remember all those broken promises one of the reasons I never went Reg.
You are not ranting and kj_gully Faulty Towers does monitor this site and the CDS does get intel were his name is used and he is interested in what we think.

 

[54/102 CEF]

Hi there

I made some updates to the Combat Diver Site at www.donlowconcrete.com/CDAC

Send stories with PICs of divers via PM link or suggestions

All you other non-engineers recruits - follow the guys in the flippers! - you might even see this some day http://www.donlowconcrete.com/CDAC/pages/thailand.htm

 

[Sapper6]

All,

Just to let you know that I have it from a very reliable source that a Combat Dive Team of 5 x divers/supervisors deployed to the Gulf Coast of USA on OP UNISON (Relief effort for Hurricane Katrina).  This team, although OPCON to the Canadian Navy Task Force, came from 4 ESR Gagetown.

Although the work they have been doing would be classified as 'general engineer support' type tasks - they are for all intents and purposes - "operational". 

Once again, it may not sound like cool, SOF magazine-type stuff, but it is valuable experience that will go into the Combat Diver repertoire for work along the littorals...much the same as Swiss Air Flt 111.

Sapper 6 sends.

 

[koss78a]

TO become a combat diver? Does one have to be in the army as a Combat ENgineer to qualify?

Can someone who is in the navy apply to become a Combat Diver?

Thank you

 

[Kat Stevens]

Yes.
No

 

[McG]

Can someone who is in the navy apply to become a Combat Diver?

Mebers of the Navy can be Ship's divers.  Combat divers and Ship's divers can occupational transfer to clearance diver (a Navy occupation).  Do a search of the site if you want to know more about Navy Divers

 

[joe]

I think the ADC has to work on its public awareness plan. A fair bit of work has been done and is being done. FYI, the Combat Diver QS/TP have recently been completed. Dive Supervisor QS at end of this month. TP scheduled for Jan 06. Requal and Recert courses are tied to the Cbt Diver QS. Likely will be a distance learning element on the Requal. Think of it as a modern PIP. The CABA Implementation Plan (new drysuit design, underwear ensemble, and ancillary kit) is on the street and we're expecting civ contractor bids on the drysuit in the next month. Authorization has been received to dive to 150 fsw (after you get the catch up trg!). Current dive course just rolled in at the half way point from Halifax. Now it gets hard.

All is not sunshine and kisses however. There are significant "ownership issues" regarding the ADC and LFDTS and CFSTG. Hopefully all will be resolved and the ADC can carry on improving Army diving in general.

Ref those who see combat divers as stuck in the "standby days," the ADC is already looking at positioning Army diving to support amphibious ops (as well as developing doctrine and eqpt capability deficiencies to address general support tasks) . But be aware, this is a completely new area for Army diving. Combat divers know little about very shallow water mine counter mine ops especially in a surf zone. There are also significant combat engineer tasks on the beach that need to be accomplished. Divers will have to be prepared to take off the drysuit and put their Army hats back on. There is a lot to learn and Allied subject matter experts need to be consulted. Potentially, Ex ROGUISH BUOY may include an amphibious spin. Combat dive teams need to learn to work with and transition from Clearance divers who will be taking care of the deeper water MCM but also potentially transitioning inland. Then there will be a need to work with Pathfinders and other "pointy end" recce/raid/assault assets who could already be in location.

It's interesting times in the dive world folks. Lots more to come.

 

[Sapper6]

Joe,

You're right about the comms plan.  Not a lot out there on the Cbt Dive Community and particularly the Army Dive Centre (ADC).  Hopefully, we can see more updates from you, as I know some of us enjoy keeping abreast of the latest developments.

By the way, good work on getting the Maple Leaf article in on Ex ROUGUISH BUOY.

What is the ADC policy on support to the Unofficial Combat Diver website sponsored by Don Low and friends?

DIVE ARMY!

S6

 

[kj_gully]

Hey all, and especially Joe. Some great stuff on your post, look forward to more "gen" . My question is in regards to the brief comment on the magical 150' Caba dive depth. It is a pretty simple thing to teach an Army diver to reach those bone crushing depths, hell they let reserves do it, but couldn't the training time be better spent on more shallow water ops? If transitioning from the Navy EOD to clear beach heads, so much time and resources will be required to complete the VSW zone that you will not have the time to send any divers into deeper waters, especially on ai,r to much of anything. The PID Diovers requirement is to quickly descend, id ordnance, return to surface and report. Can you imagine attempting to do work down there? repets, Decompression considerations, air supply issues. As you know it gets pretty complicated pretty fast, and would require a bit more work up than the Combat Divers i remember had. Not to say they still exist, but as I said before, if there are still guys in the dive section who can't quite figure out which side of the tank the regulator comes off, , probably shouldn't send them down to get narced. On another advanced, and possibly more useful dive tool, how ' bout rebreathers, Joe? They will definitely excite the Army Diver.