All Things First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, residential schools, etc. (merged)

[CBH99]

Except that they were wrong: We did have slavery and slaves in Canada, just not in large numbers and for farm work. The rich families of Montreal, Quebec and Halifax, amongst others, had slaves for domestic work until slavery was abolished in England (and by ricochet, in the British Empire).

Now that I'm older, and the internet exists, and Google makes researching things a lot easier than it was back when I was in school (I remember when Caller ID first came out, and Encarta CD Rom was mind blowing) - I've spent a bit of time every single day, for the past several years, taking the time to learn about a variety of things that I was very much misinformed about when I was young.

A lot of the history we were taught in school was absolute rubbish. I really can't say anything other than 'pathetic'. I realize young kids aren't going to retain a ton of information about "Which PM signed this treaty?", so they teach the bare basics. But not only did we learn the bare basics about some things - we didn't learn anything about some pretty important historical topics, and grossly misinformed about others.


- We didn't have slavery, while the US did.

- Not a single mention of residential schools

- Europeans came to North America. Some initial turmoil, cultural differences. Europeans introduced disease, alcohol, and forced the natives of the land onto Reserves. That was it really.

- Basic WW2 "Germans bad, Europe. Japanese bad, Pacific." That was pretty much it, minus why November 11th is important and key Canadian contributions. (Yes, I feel like they mixed WW1 and WW2 up for certain things. And being honest, we didn't learn a single thing about the Canadians liberating the Dutch.)


I now listen to a lot of Mark Felton, Kyle Hill, and I do enjoy Thoughty2 - while I relax, along with some other history and science channels. As an adult, I realize now my education about these things was literally a quick gloss over.... sad (But boy did we ever seem to have plenty of time to learn about quadratic equations!)

 

[Colin Parkinson]

IIRC orphans and unwanted children were shipped here from Britain in the late 1800s? Yes we had slaves.

As did the First Nations with Slave raids

John R. Jewitt - Wikipedia

Raiders from the sea

Along one of the world’s greatest salmon rivers, archaeologists and First Nations elders discover clues to a turbulent past

www.canadiangeographic.ca

 

[Kilted]

As did the First Nations with Slave raids

John R. Jewitt - Wikipedia

Raiders from the sea

Along one of the world’s greatest salmon rivers, archaeologists and First Nations elders discover clues to a turbulent past

www.canadiangeographic.ca

Yeah, that's not one of the things they teach in schools anymore, that and the cannibal practices of some First Nations, Joseph Brant seems to have survived cancel culture so far,

 

[Colin Parkinson]

That would require doing research and open minded learning to find out about him first of all, then they would cancel or write a fluff piece discounting his entire story.

 

[Remius]

Except that they were wrong: We did have slavery and slaves in Canada, just not in large numbers and for farm work. The rich families of Montreal, Quebec and Halifax, amongst others, had slaves for domestic work until slavery was abolished in England (and by ricochet, in the British Empire).

To an extent yes. there is a big distinction between a slave society, which the US (Rome is a good example of a slave society) at the time was and society with slaves, like Great Britain and others.

 

[CBH99]

To an extent yes. there is a big distinction between a slave society, which the US (Rome is a good example of a slave society) at the time was and society with slaves, like Great Britain and others.

I've tried to google this a few different ways, but I don't think I'm understanding this in a concrete enough way. Mind a quick explanation?

 

[brihard]

I've tried to google this a few different ways, but I don't think I'm understanding this in a concrete enough way. Mind a quick explanation?

Probably slaves as a foundation of major sectors of the economy - e.g., an essential part of the labour force - versus being a domestic luxury for the rich. There’s a reason the southern states went all traitory and started/lost a war over slavery. They depended economically on the total subjugation of other human beings. I don’t believe slavery in Canada was ever close to that widespread. We didn’t have the same sort of plantation agriculture.

 

[GR66]

To an extent yes. there is a big distinction between a slave society, which the US (Rome is a good example of a slave society) at the time was and society with slaves, like Great Britain and others.

I'm also not sure where you're going with the "Slave Society" vs "Society with Slaves" distinction. You describe Great Britain as a "Society with Slaves" vs a "Slave Society" like Rome or the US, and while you're correct that there were not a great number of slaves held in the British Isles themselves the British economy was indeed very much dependent on the slave labour in its colonies that provided the foundation for its trade economy.

You can see here (Infographic: The Countries Most Active in the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade) how deeply involved in the trans-Atlantic slave trade Britain was involved.

And as mentioned by Brihard, slavery in Canada may not have been as widespread as in the US, but that's much more due to the Canadian climate not being suited to large scale, labour intensive agriculture (like cotton and sugar cane) that would require a large number of slaves rather than due to any moral superiority of the British and French settlers living here vs settlers from those very same nations extensively using slaves elsewhere.

Except that they were wrong: We did have slavery and slaves in Canada, just not in large numbers and for farm work. The rich families of Montreal, Quebec and Halifax, amongst others, had slaves for domestic work until slavery was abolished in England (and by ricochet, in the British Empire).

I think this is also a somewhat false narrative we've been fed to make ourselves feel better (and superior) about our history with regard to slavery. That our slaves were merely basically domestic servants in the homes of the wealthy. In fact, slaves were extensively owned at all levels of society and performed all types of labour (including farm work) and faced many of the same harsh treatments faced by slaves south of the border, including beatings, rape and execution. (Black Enslavement in Canada | The Canadian Encyclopedia.)

 

[Remius]

Probably slaves as a foundation of major sectors of the economy - e.g., an essential part of the labour force - versus being a domestic luxury for the rich. There’s a reason the southern states went all traitory and started/lost a war over slavery. They depended economically on the total subjugation of other human beings. I don’t believe slavery in Canada was ever close to that widespread. We didn’t have the same sort of plantation agriculture.

Exactly. Rome and a large part of the US relied on slaves to keep their economy going and in certain ways as a way to maintain leisurely existence. Rome and the US though, having a big difference in that slavery wasn’t race based in Rome. But that is another interesting conversation.

i came across the expression while visiting Louibourg. They have a plaque dedicated to the first slave brought there explaining it nicely.

https://www.enotes.com/homework-help/what-difference-between-society-with-slaves-slave-306531

English North America: Slave Societies vs. Societies with Slaves · African Passages, Lowcountry Adaptations · Lowcountry Digital History Initiative

A few links that explains it a bit.

Canada was never a slave society, even in it’s earlier incarnations.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The Canadian Museum of Human Rights has a good background piece on the subject of slavery in BNA:


Slavery in British North America

Slavery continued after the British conquest of New France in 1763. The territory was eventually renamed British North America, and Black enslaved people came to replace Indigenous enslaved people. Compared to the United States, enslaved people made up a much smaller proportion of the population in British North America. This means that some of the worst traits of slavery in America, such as the employment of overseers and the horrible practice of forcing enslaved people to reproduce, did not happen in what is now Canada. It would be wrong, however, to suggest that enslaved people in British North America were well‐treated. The very nature of slavery meant that its victims were stripped of their basic human rights and exploited. Most wills from the time treated enslaved people as nothing more than property, passing on ownership of human beings the same as they would furniture, cattle or land.5 Defiant or troublesome enslaved people were often severely punished. Physical and sexual abuse was always a very real threat.

The story of Black slavery in Canadian history | CMHR

Canada celebrates being a destination for Americans who escaped slavery via the Underground Railroad. But slavery was also part of Canada’s history for more than 200 years.

humanrights.ca

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Talk about glossing over the slavery by First Nation for thousands of years. When the HBC men asked the Cree who the other FN's where, they called the Dene "The Slaves" as that is the group they raided the most for slaves. They also called the other First Nations "Dogs"

 

[Remius]

Talk about glossing over the slavery by First Nation for thousands of years. When the HBC men asked the Cree who the other FN's where, they called the Dene "The Slaves" as that is the group they raided the most for slaves. They also called the other First Nations "Dogs"

Actually there is quite a body of work on pre colonial slavery. A bit of a different beast but a facsinating subject and varied from culture to culture. The Haida apparently were quite known for slavery and it being hereditary in nature. Also many native cultures participated in slave trading when Europeans brought their brand of slavery to the americas.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I was talking about the link that D&B provided.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I was talking about the link that D&B provided.

Dude.... you have no idea how to attract 'guilt funding', do you?

One of the better reconciliation programs I've seen recently is the artifact repatriation program being run by the Royal BC Museum. They ask local First Nations if they'd like their art back, which was taken many years ago from remote villages on the coast (ostensibly to ensure that it survived).

Some communities say 'no, please keep it becausee you have great facilities to store and display it, but thanks for asking us.' And they wind up building good longer term relationships that they can build on to facilitate sharing historical treasures back and forth.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I think I have reached maximum capacity of "The noble First Nations living in harmony before contact". As my Persian friend says "They only been invaded once?"

 

[Remius]

Dude.... you have no idea how to attract 'guilt funding', do you?

One of the better reconciliation programs I've seen recently is the artifact repatriation program being run by the Royal BC Museum. They ask local First Nations if they'd like their art back, which was taken many years ago from remote villages on the coast (ostensibly to ensure that it survived).

Some communities say 'no, please keep it becausee you have great facilities to store and display it, but thanks for asking us.' And they wind up building good longer term relationships that they can build on to facilitate sharing historical treasures back and forth.

I heard of something similar about Inuit art and sculptures in Regina maybe? But basically they offered to return the art to the Inuit communities and the overwhelming response was to keep it so other people could see it. That it would get more exposure there.

 

[Remius]

I think I have reached maximum capacity of "The noble First Nations living in harmony before contact". As my Persian friend says "They only been invaded once?"

I’m not sure that is something common outside of Hollywood or left wing non native types.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I’m not sure that is something common outside of Hollywood or left wing non native types.

I've seen this sacrificial stone in the museum in Mexico City. It was in use for hundreds of years and likely has a bigger body count than the 8th Air Force:

Human sacrifice in Aztec culture​

When the Aztecs sacrificed people to Huitzilopochtli (the god with warlike aspects) the victim would be placed on a sacrificial stone.[30] The priest would then cut through the abdomen with an obsidian or flint blade.[31] The heart would be torn out still beating and held towards the sky in honor to the Sun-God. The body would then be pushed down the pyramid where the Coyolxauhqui stone could be found. The Coyolxauhqui Stone recreates the story of Coyolxauhqui, Huitzilopochtli's sister who was dismembered at the base of a mountain, just as the sacrificial victims were.[32] The body would be carried away and either cremated or given to the warrior responsible for the capture of the victim. He would either cut the body in pieces and send them to important people as an offering, or use the pieces for ritual cannibalism. The warrior would thus ascend one step in the hierarchy of the Aztec social classes, a system that rewarded successful warriors.[33]

Human sacrifice in Aztec culture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I’m not sure that is something common outside of Hollywood or left wing non native types.

I have heard it for years out here from all sorts, pretty much all whites of both sexes and every class. I did a lot of FN consultation and I can count on one hand and have spare fingers for the times I have heard a FN person say it. Most of the FN people are oblivious of how bad treatment could be on non-native in a similar time, which I get, they were wrapped up in their own trauma. I am fairly forgiving of my ancestors up until the beginning of the 20th century. After that time period, things improved rapidly for poor/discriminated non-FN people, but the FN's were totally screwed by the Indian Act, Indian Agents and bureaucrats, along with the PC class of the time supporting bad decisions. I swear most people information they have on FN's is from Disney, which is also where they seem to have gotten most of their information on the environment from as well. Mind you the FN, don't work to hard to educate these people, as it's not in their economic interest to do so.

DB - Lets not forget the walls made from skulls! When the Conquistadors arrived, many of the subjugated tribes quickly aligned with them to overthrow the Azetec leadership and for good reason.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I have heard it for years out here from all sorts, pretty much all whites of both sexes and every class. I did a lot of FN consultation and I can count on one hand and have spare fingers for the times I have heard a FN person say it. Most of the FN people are oblivious of how bad treatment could be on non-native in a similar time, which I get, they were wrapped up in their own trauma. I am fairly forgiving of my ancestors up until the beginning of the 20th century. After that time period, things improved rapidly for poor/discriminated non-FN people, but the FN's were totally screwed by the Indian Act, Indian Agents and bureaucrats, along with the PC class of the time supporting bad decisions. I swear most people information they have on FN's is from Disney, which is also where they seem to have gotten most of their information on the environment from as well. Mind you the FN, don't work to hard to educate these people, as it's not in their economic interest to do so.

At the risk of over generalizing, I also think that 'they' in general are exceedingly polite and resist trying to preach to others out of a sense of respect.

We can learn alot from people like that.