All Things First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, residential schools, etc. (merged)

[Kirkhill]

The First Nations, Quebecois nation, Canadian nation presents all sorts of interesting possibilities that are now starting to exercise Duceppe and Phil Fontaine.

Joe Clark proposed a community of communities.
Pierre Trudeau proposed a nation of cultures
Stephen Harper has proposed a nation of nations of which the Quebecois are one

In response to the latest gambit Gordon Campbell proposes recognizing a nation of First Nations within the nation of Canada.  At this point everyone gets cheerfully confused.

Gilles wanted Quebec to be equal to Canada.  He has accepted the premise that Quebecois are a subset of Canada (however the Quebecois choose to identify themselves)
Phil wanted the First Nations to be recognized as equal to the Quebecois meaning that there was the risk of ultimately equalling Canada.  Now that the risk is gone he still wants "First Nation" to equal Quebecois.  What wasn't clear is whether each nation plus the Inuit and Metis (white folks with some Native blood or Natives with white blood) is an individual nation or a collective nation.

Along comes Gordon who says we really should recognize each of the First Nations as nations within the nation of First Nations within the nation of Canada.  Phil says hold on ...... does that give me more power or less?

And ultimately that is what this is all about.  Gilles and Phil want more power.  They used the word nation as a club to get it.  This was possible because "nation" could be construed as having a precise meaning.

Now, in Canada, in common usage, nation can be a tribe, clan, religion (Israel and Islam are both nations), country, like-minded individuals..........by obfuscation the value of the word as a propoganda tool is degraded.

Likewise with Quebecois.  It now means whatever the speaker and hearer want it to mean.  In that sense a lack of clarity is a good thing.

Where clarity is necessary is to make the people currently living within the boundaries administered by the government in Ottawa realize that by treaty, common usage and force of arms those borders are unchangeable.

 

[rmacqueen]

Quick statistic I heard today.  In Canada, the federal government spends, on average, $15,000/person.  This includes things such as roads, infrastructure, health care, etc.  When it comes to First Nations, the government spends $9,000/person.  And we wonder why they are in the state they are.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Since the roads, infrastructure, defence, etc paid for by the federal government are enjoyed by everyone, you probably need to add the $15,000 (or at least a sizeable chunk of it) and $9,000 together to obtain the per person spending for those entitled to the $9,000.

 

[rmacqueen]

Since the roads, infrastructure, defence, etc paid for by the federal government are enjoyed by everyone, you probably need to add the $15,000 (or at least a sizeable chunk of it) and $9,000 together to obtain the per person spending for those entitled to the $9,000.

The amount does not include things like defence, foreighn aid, etc but on stuff of direct benefit to citizens.  It also does not include items paid for through municipal taxation such as streets, water treatment and schools.  The $9,000 for First Nations is supposed to cover roads and sewers on reserves, health care, schools, water treatment, sewer, etc.  Given that a lot of reserves are in remote locations there are also not many public roads for them to use either

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Sorry, but I call BS on that statistic.......

 

[Jarnhamar]

Yea I'd call BS on that stat too. Wouldn't mind seeing the source.

Biggest complaint among native americans I know is that certian members of the tribes get a lot more cash than the rest. Seems like they often feel the chiefs and leadership types are a lot more comfortable than the rest.

 

[Jacqueline]

A community approach needs to be taken to end the division between Aboriginal and Non Aboriginal people. With a mutual respect to both "sides".

The government should provide means to accomplish this objective without just dishing out money to the leaders.

Then Aboriginal people might slowly begin to re-discover ourselves. I think the government is throwing guilt money to compensate for the decisions of previous generations.

Alot of Aboriginals feel that there is a slipping awareness of their culture.
Most feel that their indigenous hunter/gatherer societies have been destroyed.

I guess the government doesn't know what to do about it.

 

[UberCree]

The amount does not include things like defence, foreighn aid, etc but on stuff of direct benefit to citizens.  It also does not include items paid for through municipal taxation such as streets, water treatment and schools.  The $9,000 for First Nations is supposed to cover roads and sewers on reserves, health care, schools, water treatment, sewer, etc.  Given that a lot of reserves are in remote locations there are also not many public roads for them to use either

I would like to see the source for those numbers as well. 
They do not surprise me however.  In education, we FN's in Manitoba are given $4400.00 per pupil through federal transfer payments.  Public school divisions in the province receive between $6,000 - $10,000 per pupil, depending on their location and tax base (prov pays percentage and they raise a varying percentage through their school board).  In essence we are supposed to do the same job with 2/3rds of the money (or less).  In my case we get half of the money per pupil that the provincial schools down the road get.  All of this money goes through the band chief and council in one lump sum.  All housing, sewer, water, education, infrastructure, etc. are received in one sum.  It would not surprise me one but if those numbers were accurate in that regard when things are totalled up.  Of course if the band leadership decides that it needs more money to get a sewer system, or running water operating in the community they can take money from the education budget, which usually leaves us less.

 

[UberCree]

Either the "protesters" are breaking the law, and must be held to account; or the Rule of Law, one of the very underpinnings of western civilization, has been nullified. If it can happen there, then what is to stop it from happening elsewhere?

That is the essense of the dabate. 
They (6 Nations) would argue that justice is on their side, as supported by numerous supreme court decisions and that transfering the land away from the band was the illegal act.   

 

[Kirkhill]

Do the 6 Nations (and the Cree for that matter) accept the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court?

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Do the 6 Nations (and the Cree for that matter) accept the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court?

As long as they are giving hand outs. 
It will get real dicey when somebody finally grows a set and puts their foot down on this sort of thing. 

State sponsored support of any culture is ridiculous.  If the culture has value, it will last.  If it doesn't, it will fade into history.  Simple as that.  If French is so bloody grand, it will survive.  If being a hunter/gatherer is so fantastic, people will head to the forests in droves. 
I see plenty of Scottish games, Ukrainian festivals, Caribanna, and other displays of cultural unity around this country.  To have a culture enforced by law and supported artificially by Federal funds is as sad as leaving your grandma gurgling away on a life support machine.  Pull the plug, and let nature take it's course. 
Would it not stand to reason that if the Indian Act was scrapped, there would be a polarizing of native interest?  You would have one group that would rally around and make sure that the lessons and traditions would never be lost.  Then there would be a group that was only "native by convenience" (for lack of a better term) and would probably let their heritage slide.  But would the first group really lament the loss of the second? 
And if you FN's are saying that life is so terrible and that the public sector is so much better off than you, why not join it?  Hell, it would probably do the rest of the kids a world of good to have an infusion of native kids to be along side in the cultural exchange scheme of things.   
In the mean time, it's going to take a lot of convincing for me to see native issues as anything but another special interest group wanting to have their cake and eat it too.

 

[Klc]

I would like to see the source for those numbers as well. 
Public school divisions in the province receive between $6,000 - $10,000 per pupil, depending on their location and tax base (prov pays percentage and they raise a varying percentage through their school board).  In essence we are supposed to do the same job with 2/3rds of the money (or less).  In my case we get half of the money per pupil that the provincial schools down the road get.

I'd like to see a source on this one as well - I went to a crumbling manitoba public school, and if they were getting this much money, we wouldn't have had to shut down a dozen vocational programs, or require sizeable "Materials/Lab Fee"s to take the remaining specialty courses.

 

[ArmyRick]

Zipperhead Cop, good points brought out in the real world.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Doesn't giving one man a lump sum of money with orders to dish it out as he see's fit seem a little dangerous?
Makes it pretty easy to misappropriate the funds?

I can't speak for stats on schools and what X amount of money students are given.
I know when I went to public school where we had a considerable number of FN students they never had to pay a dime for anything. School supplies- paid for.  I remember in law class one guy laughing about his $400 calculator that he got it for free. Another I was told had an $800 calculator though that seems a little high to me. In any case this stuff was sold to other students. I remember them bragging about getting allowances for clothes and lunch.
In Ottawa a buddy of mine from the reserves was pissed. FN students in her university class were bragging about how their going to school for free and got money on top of that for living expenses and a free room in the dorm.  IT apparently wasn't osap either.

I'm not sure the mechanics behind that stuff mind you but at the time it came across as pretty unfair.
FN kids in my highschool defiantly were not living in poverty. At 15 to 18 they had the best clothes, drove new cars and would pull out wads of $50 and $100 bills in class. Big joke was to pay someone $5 or $10 to count their cash for em.

 

[Jacqueline]

FN kids in my highschool defiantly were not living in poverty.

That's a funny thing because the high school I went to was just the opposite.
I don't know why. All I know is most of the younger FN kids would get involved in criminal activities just to "get something to eat."

 

[Jacqueline]

State sponsored support of any culture is ridiculous.  If the culture has value, it will last.  If it doesn't, it will fade into history.  Simple as that.  If French is so bloody grand, it will survive.  If being a hunter/gatherer is so fantastic, people will head to the forests in droves. 
I see plenty of Scottish games, Ukrainian festivals, Caribanna, and other displays of cultural unity around this country.  To have a culture enforced by law and supported artificially by Federal funds is as sad as leaving your grandma gurgling away on a life support machine.  Pull the plug, and let nature take it's course. 

OK but Canada is not the only nation facing these problems. As a matter of fact, no nation with a history of colonisation has been able to solve the problems it's indigenous population faces. It is really a complicated issue. In North America, South America, Africa, Australia, Northern Sentinel Island (Andaman), Amazon basin interior (Papua).

Maybe state sponsorship is ridiculous but it is happening, and someone in power is supporting it.
All of the nations above are also feeling the same strain, and it might be coincidently, but all these nations have also been invaded. So what happened a couple hundred years ago is what this generation is paying for again. What can I do? What can I say?

The world's changin everyday, time's moving fast. But that doesn't mean people shouldn't attempt to hold on to their past.

 

[UberCree]

Flawed Design, Wow, free stuff?  Someone tell me where I can go to get free stuff and rolls of money!!!   
Man and I thought for a second that some folk were moderately educated on Aboriginal issues ... nope.  Nothing like good old anecdotal evidence to start prejudice.


Here's a report on poverty released just recently by AFN.  I double dare you to read it! 
http://www.afn.ca/cmslib/general/SR-FS.pdf


As it stands today, and Aboriginal child born in Canada has a greater chance of dying from suicide than finishing college. 

If you simply don't care about issues like that, about issues that hold Canada back from being an icon in a globalized modern world ... well then maybe you should renounce your Canadian citizenship and move somewhere that people are only judged by how much money they have.  Where survival of the fittest rules the day and there are NO social problems.  Somewhere in South America maybe?  I dont know. 
In fact some of you have some real problems with Canada and our judicial system.  Maybe you should think twice about calling yourselves patriots if you disagree with the very foundation of Canada's constitution ... that recognizes Aboriginal rights to sovereignty (nationhood) and treaty rights.  Some of you need to suck it up and move on perhaps. 

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Here's a report on poverty released just recently by AFN.  I double dare you to read it! 
http://www.afn.ca/cmslib/general/SR-FS.pdf

Gee, how compelling.  A dare.  Okay, I read it.  A one page stand alone PDF file with unsubstantiated statistics from unnamed sources from an organization with an agenda.  Yep, pretty flawless info that one.  :

As it stands today, and Aboriginal child born in Canada has a greater chance of dying from suicide than finishing college. 

Sounds like they are going to some shitty colleges. 
But seriously, how is that an "us" problem?  There are kids across this country, hell across this planet that grow up in dirt poor poverty and don't wax themselves.  Sorry, that statistic strikes me as more of an indictment of your family unit than some national responsibility.  What are the suicide statistics for, say, Chinese immigrants that come here, live 15 to a two bedroom house, work 18 hour days and still go to school full time? 
I really have to wonder what sort of convoluted sense of entitlement brings somebody to think that their child killing themself has anything to do with elected officials or printed legislation  ???

If you simply don't care about issues like that, about issues that hold Canada back from being an icon in a globalized modern world ... well then maybe you should renounce your Canadian citizenship and move somewhere that people are only judged by how much money they have.  Where survival of the fittest rules the day and there are NO social problems.  Somewhere in South America maybe?  I dont know 

Wow.  And you got pissy for the racist undertones of the LCBO comment?  "Why don't you go back to your own country"? Nice.
Nobody judges anyone in this country except for how they conduct themselves.  My job allows me the luxury of seeing that every segment of Canadian culture has it's elements that suck.  Arseholes are translucent, and take on whatever colour they touch.  ACT like a normal citizen and get TREATED like a normal citizen.  That has nothing to do with being native.

In fact some of you have some real problems with Canada and our judicial system.  Maybe you should think twice about calling yourselves patriots if you disagree with the very foundation of Canada's constitution ... that recognizes Aboriginal rights to sovereignty (nationhood) and treaty rights. 

".......and now I'm taking my dream catcher and going home!!  Pthhhhhhppt!"  [INSERT SOUND OF HUFFY, STAMPING MOCASINS TROMPING OFF]
Recognizing EVERYONES rights is one of the great things about our country.  However, many of us are getting sick of the Orwellian "some animals are more equal than others" attitude.

Some of you need to suck it up and move on perhaps. 

OH, THE GLISTENING IRONY!!!!

edit for spelling and grammar

 

[a_majoor]

We see a strange convergence of issues here. The ultimate source of the problem(s) with native protesters and Quebec separatists is the idea of "Ethnic Nationalism", which is a polite way of sayig tribalism. Ethnic nationalism is exclusionary for many reasons, but in essence the modern Canadian form is a means of creating a smaller pond so the fish within can seem relatively larger. Outsiders must be excluded since they are unknown quantities who might become potential challengers for influence and power within the community.

WRT reservations and native students, different bands behave differently, some band councils and chiefs work hard for the band while others are in it for themselves and their circle of friends, which probably explains the noted disparity between different groups of students. Regardless, being on life support like that is degrading and demoralizing, and for that reason alone the current system should be scrapped. reservations could be converted to municipalities or counties depending on circumstances, and the really non viable ones stuck in the middle of nowhere should be disbanded and the people evacuated to where they can become self supporting and self sufficient.

Of course to do this is to negate ideas of "First Nations" and "Quebec" as a nation, and embrace civic nationalism and the idea of Canada as a nation in place of these ideas.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The federal government budget for 2006 called for about $223,600M in total expenditures.  Current population is estimated somewhere over 32.5M.  Subtract the 1/30th of the population that is aboriginal (a slight overestimate), leaving a little over 31.4M people.  Since I've underestimated the number of non-aboriginal people at each approximation (the denominator in the money/person ratio), the federal per (non-aboriginal) person expenditures proposed for 2006 had a rough upper bound of $7,121.  If we knock off the public debt servicing charges and look only at the program spending ($188,800M) the per person upper bound is near $6,013.  So $15,000 per person in federal spending is just more bullshit being passed on as fact.  All these figures are easily found on gc.ca web sites and the sniff test requires about Grade 4 arithmetic ability.  Don't be shy about questioning what you hear or read before you parrot it.