All Things Negligent Discharge (merged)

[Jarnhamar]

I still think in a hostile enviroment they should have one ready.

"Any ND is just that. AD was a very poor term, that is why it no longer exists" I was told by a friend int rentont hat they are no longer calling it an ND when the airforce do it because some of them are insulted by it or something like that. IT makes them sound bad, they call it an accidental discharge now.

 

[kellywmj]

Its relevant to point out that in the British army, the term "negligent" discharge has always been used, the implication being that any unwanted discharge of a weapon is due to the negligence of the soldier. There can be no other way to characterise it. You have have control of your weapon, or you don't. An accident, by definition, is an occurance without cause, and that was not foreseen. A round up the spout, change lever on Fire, finger on trigger, Thats negligence.

 

[axeman]

Its relevant to point out that in the British army, the term "negligent" discharge has always been used, the implication being that any unwanted discharge of a weapon is due to the negligence of the soldier. There can be no other way to characterise it. You have have control of your weapon, or you don't. An accident, by definition, is an occurance without cause, and that was not foreseen. A round up the spout, change lever on Fire, finger on trigger, Thats negligence.

i agree as i knew a person who was killed by a negligent discharge civy side . i personally know after killing a friend of mine and making his wife a widow all the person got was 3 lousy years in jail .  when its broken down to what youve stated and ive always believed in is that its never an acident...

 

[48Highlander]

I don't see why people are attempting to justify ND's.  Sure, it'll always happen, and so will all sorts of other injuries due to negligence.  However, they shouldn't happen to anyone who knows their weapon and is aware of what they're doing.  I've never even come close to having an ND on any weapons system, nor have the majority of the people I work with.  Saying that they're "inevitable" for every person (I beleive the phrase was "the longer you go without one, the more likely it is to happen") is foolish.  I carry my weapon with me wherever I go.  If there's no requirement for it to be readied, I make sure it's not.  If it IS readied, I make sure it's on safe.  Whenever I change my grip on it, the first thing I do is line up my thumb with the safety.  The only way I could concievably have an ND is if I was on heavy drugs and totaly unaware of what I was doing.  Those who do have ND's usualy don't need heavy drugs in order to have no clue what they're doing

 

[Fusaki]

While it is something we should all be concerned about, we shouldn't be afraid of readied weapons. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's heard of guys overseas leaving the bolts out of their weapons, taping rounds inside the mags so they don't feed properly, and cocking their weapons with no mags so they can put it on safe and make it look ready, and only fix a mag after. I've been under the impression that this is more of a problem in the support trades, but I've heard of guys doing this in my own Regiment as well. Shit like that makes my blood boil. In the infantry, everything we do is based on the fact that we can use or threaten to use deadly force. But if your fear of an ND stops makes you combat ineffective, then there is a major fucking problem.

NDs do happen, and they should always be punished severly. But intentionally sabotaging your personal weapon should be dealt with 20 times worse. Instant repatriation at the very least.

 

[Bartok5]

I have seen more than a few NDs during the past 25 years, working with soldiers of many different nations with varying levels of training and experience.  I think it is safe to say that any expectation of zero incidence of unintended firing is delusional.  Mix soldiers (especially tired or excited soldiers) with firearms and ammunition, and there are inevitably going to be unintentional discharges.  They are simply a fact of military life, just as automobile accidents are a fact of civilian life no matter how carefully everyone drives.  

The key is incidence MINIMIZATION through repetitive training to the point that safe weapons handling (including muzzle awareness) becomes instinctive, and the handling drills become ingrained in muscle memory.  In other words, the ideal level of training sees all soldiers so repetitively drilled in safe weapons handling that they perform the correct drills and observe safety without having to consciously think about it or be told to do so.  Are we in the Canadian Army there?  No, but overall we are pretty good - at least within the combat arms.  Remember this the next time you hear anyone pissing and moaning about having to run through supervised TsOETs for the "umpteenth time".  Theoretical knowledge is inadequate.  Intense repetition of correct handling drills, coupled with immediate correction of faults, is the ONLY effective method for minimizing the incidence of NDs.

As a final point, I fully concur with KellyWMJ.  There is only one type of "Accidental" discharge.  And that occurs where a loaded weapon can be demonstrated to have fired without human manipulation due to verifiable mechanical malfunction.   Every other incidence of unintended firing is the result of individual Negligence of one form or another.  It may be willful, or it may be unintentional.  But at the end of the day it is Negligence on the part of the soldier, his/her chain of command, or a combination of both.

Just my $.02

 

[KevinB]

I agree fully with MarkC on this issue - and with Ghostwalk (we had a Cpl walk around with out his bolt in Afghan...)

For those who don't know: I was repatriated from Op Athena RotoII (after 87days) for failure to report a Sr NCO who had a ND with his sections Remington 870 shotgun.  Worse yet I got a replacement round from the CQ to make up the sections missing round (I had signed for all the Pl's 12ga ammo).  When the Sgt fired the round he had placed the weapon in a safe direction and made a terrible misatke assuming that it was not loaded (he had pumped the slide...)  However IF you had seen his face after the discharge you woudl have known that he learned more from that - than he would or did from any administrative action or charge he woudl (and did) face.  These days I place a large degree of blame on the system for the individuals do not get the weapon handlign they NEED.  However I beleive ND's in theatre and ND's in Canada need to be aproached the same way - we have had Theatre ND's by a Capt with a LAV cannon be swept under the rug (Bosnia Roto 11) we have had DLOC ND's go merriliy away the Cpl shot the OC with a simuntion round (small fine and was later promoted to M/Cpl  : ) furthermore in 1VP we had a Cpl have two C7 ND's on one ex (one durign a safety breif  ) and then he was promoted to M/Cpl...

Sadly the CF needs to get its act together on the issue of ND's - either they are a big deal - or they are not - but they must be enforced across the board - less we get into another gray area where rules are selectively enforced depanding upon if the chain of command like the individuals involved.

IMHO we should have 1 (ONE) standard for ND's be it live, blank or sim - in Canada or abroad. 

 

[1feral1]

A few years back a guy in my PL had an UD with an AUG. He had the rifle slung across his back while carrying stores to make a strong point.

He had gone thru some bush repeatly, doing a slow jog, as the rifle slapped against his back the safety went to fire, and coming thru the bush again a branch got caught in the large trigger guard of the rifle, discharging a single shot, while slung across his back, and with his hands full.

The member was indeed charged. No injuries.

The safety catch is a poor design and after repeated UDs in theatre (and on Ex etc), DMO came up with a test (and a gauge to measure). The safety catch needed a mininum of 3kg pressure to go to fire. This made about 80-90% of rifles   'NS', and caused a shortage force wide of safety catch srprings which took almost a year to procure. A new spring was designed, and the pressure was dropped from 3kg to 2.2kg, and thats where it stands right now.

The unload drill after the 1993 Somalia death simply means the barrel has to be removed in EVERY unload drill and for 'inspect weapons'. A steel barrel wearing on an alloy housing, and this is not good. The barrels have indeed over a short period damaged the front of the housing, causing unnecessary damage to the rifle. Mainly cosmetic in nature (causing burrs which have been known to cut soldiers), but all the same, the rifle has never been designed to have the barrel removed each time you do an unload. It was ment to be removed for cleaning and changing the barrel length (ie from carbine to rifle, etc).

To combat weapons competancy all soldiers, all trades were required to carry a weapon loaded with blanks during their normal work day (even in the office). NCO's barked out T'sOET daily, and over time even the clerks became much more competent than they were before. Any UDs were met with a charge bearing the same as if it was a live rd.

Another feather in my cap in my dislike for the AUG. Although I have confidence in the weapon, I am prepared to carry one anywhere anytime, I would prefer a M4 any day.


Cheers,

Wes

 

[pbi]

I agree that we will probably never eradicate NDs: I have narrowly avoided a couple myself, one quite recently. But, if I asked myself why these near-NDs happened, and I am honest, I have to say it was because I was not paying attention to the drills I was taught, not because I do these drills every time I re-enter a base camp after a road trip. Practice of military skills should improve them, not degrade them. Both times it was cocking without taking off the mag. If I had had an ND, there would be nothing in my defence. And, I am in complete agreement that it is "N", not "A".

I do not think we should treat NDs as a capital offence, but they must be punished, and punished for all to see, regardless of rank. Like Kevin B, I am aware of at least one case (years ago...) in which an officer was treated more leniently than an NCM might have been. This is completely unacceptable: if anything as officers we have a duty to set a standard. I would like to think that today it would not be so easy to hide things.

As for buying little bits of kit to stick on weapons to "prevent" NDs-no, thanks. The answer is training and supervision. If recruits cannot avoid NDs it is because they are not being trained properly. Cheers.

 

[MJP]

To combat weapons competancy all soldiers, all trades were required to carry a weapon loaded with blanks during their normal work day (even in the office). NCO's barked out T'sOET daily, and over time even the clerks became much more competent than they were before. Any UDs were met with a charge bearing the same as if it was a live rd.

Wow I can't ever imagine them trying to do that here, although it would be interesting.  Was that across the board in the ADF Wes? or just a specific unit/brigade thing?

I too have seen the ugly side of letting NDs go by the wayside for officers and even a few NCOs, and it destroys the trust the troops have for the COC and the leders themselves, especially down the road when a troop gets nailed hard for an ND

 

[ArmyRick]

ND ? I have no symphathy for the soldier's error. I have no yet let one ND slide past. Includes those above me in rank and below...
Proper weapons handling and correct drills. COMPLACENCY KILLS.

 

[1feral1]

  Was that across the board in the ADF Wes? or just a specific unit/brigade thing?

Army wide, both ARA and ARes.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[KevinB]

For a while the SSF was implementing that - I know when 1RCR moved to Pet and was prepping for FYR - they were doing it.  The CO of the RCR BSL has all his empire doing it circa 94...
IT SHOULD BE A FORCE WIDE POLICY

 

[Infanteer]

we have had Theatre ND's by a Capt with a LAV cannon be swept under the rug (Bosnia Roto 11)

I remember that - the troops in my company were bitter because we had a very good SNCO witched-hunted by goof-balls over a "cover-up" and an errant 25mm round was ignored.

I agree with a firm but fair policy - applied to everyone equally.

 

[KevinB]

And HE had TWO ND's...

They witch hunted the CSM out of the CF - yet the OC and CO had no problems coverign up for an officer...

 

[1feral1]

And HE had TWO ND's...

They witch hunted the CSM out of the CF - yet the OC and CO had no problems coverign up for an officer...

Aint that the truth!. We have seen this all to often, while the 'smaller fish' get a seruous kick in the arse (or worse), its the 'bigger fish' who always seem to sneak by and end up getting a promotion.


Cheers,

Wes

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I don't want to say too much in open forum, but what I can say from a non-privileged point of view is that a senior warrant officer in our armouries was disciplined for an ND a couple years ago.  He was a thoroughly professional soldier whom I respected greatly.  A rumour went round the mill that the "ND" was actually the result of a muffled command on the firing range, after which said WO fired, and he was taken to task for it.

I won't go any further than that, except to say that the WO, at least in front of his company clerk, accepted the reasoning behind the disciplinary action (which I won't describe) and made no effort to duck responsibility even if the charge may have been (again, according to rumour) questionable.

The point being that NDs are certainly on people's minds; I would never have thought to apply the term to someone at the firing point after having been ordered to Load, but of course, there it is.  I was also rather proud that the WO took responsibility for their action; I can't imagine this individual ever expecting something to just get swept under the rug. 

 

[pbi]

Wow I can't ever imagine them trying to do that here, although it would be interesting

This was actually in our "Training for War" manual for years; I just don't think we applied it all that often. Cheers.

 

[Infanteer]

This was actually in our "Training for War" manual for years.

We have one of those?

 

[bossi]

Well, I guess it's worth getting it right the first time ... as pointed out initially:

... Corporal Stuart Jones, 27, was fatally wounded yesterday when the vehicle hit a bump, apparently dislodging what was believed to have been a Steyr rifle ...
and
... a soldier cleaning his gun accidentally shot dead his aunt, a mother of four.

I'm very glad my instructors made me do my C9 drills over again when I screwed up - it paid off on exercise in the US when I was handed an M249 that was supposed to have been unloaded ...

Confidence counts.  Complacency kills.  Practice makes "perfect" (but we're only human)
Thus, it's essential that our equipment and drills intelligently take into account the human factor.
Back in the days of the FN, it was "yes/no" - there was no in between - it was either loaded or not.
Now we've got three choices, which I'll politely insist increases the possibility of errors.
Sometimes "less is more".  After all, isn't the first rule "treat every weapon as if it's ... ?"
(i.e. the choices have further been narrowed to one, vice ... three ...)  $0.02