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All Things Negligent Discharge (merged)
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TangoTwoBravo
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I agree that training can prevent many NDs. I served at a Training Centre (an anonymous base near Balaclava On) where NDs with blanks were handled the same as live ones. It is a good policy.
That being said, even highly trained soldiers can have NDs. I've seen some NDs come up (from clearing bays) and said to myself "There but for the grace of God go I." I would categorize ND causes as follows (not counting mechanical failures):
(1) lack of training (pistols are a good example, we have cut our 9 mm training back but then give them out on deployments)
(2) lack of attention (fatigue etc)
(3) confusion over orders
(4) playing with the weapon
I would say that most NDs are due to either category 1 and 2. Training can remedy the former, while supervision and repetition can remedy the latter. Fatigue and inattention can make even the best soldier have a very bad day. There should be disciplinary and corrective action taken but the consequences should not be career ending. Learn from mistakes, correct and move on. By bringing all cases to light but handing out punishments in a non-career ending way we can encourage mistakes to be reported and give everyone the opportunity to learn.
NDs resulting from confusion over orders (and/or weapons states) are tricky. It is a tough call but that is why we have a chain of command and a military justice system.
The last category is the most serious and should dealt with accordingly. There is no excuse or mitigating circumstance that I can think of. I think that they are rare in our Army but others may have war stories (I know of one and it was dealt with). My opinion is that the first three are accidental (but still punishable) while the last is true negligence.
As an aside I have never been comfortable with the C6 and C9 clearing procedure. It is the only one I know of that actually increases the readiness state of the weapon system as part of the unload. There is probably no way around it but I'd be interested in the thoughts of the weapons SMEs here (as I am certainly not one!).
Cheers,
2B
That being said, even highly trained soldiers can have NDs. I've seen some NDs come up (from clearing bays) and said to myself "There but for the grace of God go I." I would categorize ND causes as follows (not counting mechanical failures):
(1) lack of training (pistols are a good example, we have cut our 9 mm training back but then give them out on deployments)
(2) lack of attention (fatigue etc)
(3) confusion over orders
(4) playing with the weapon
I would say that most NDs are due to either category 1 and 2. Training can remedy the former, while supervision and repetition can remedy the latter. Fatigue and inattention can make even the best soldier have a very bad day. There should be disciplinary and corrective action taken but the consequences should not be career ending. Learn from mistakes, correct and move on. By bringing all cases to light but handing out punishments in a non-career ending way we can encourage mistakes to be reported and give everyone the opportunity to learn.
NDs resulting from confusion over orders (and/or weapons states) are tricky. It is a tough call but that is why we have a chain of command and a military justice system.
The last category is the most serious and should dealt with accordingly. There is no excuse or mitigating circumstance that I can think of. I think that they are rare in our Army but others may have war stories (I know of one and it was dealt with). My opinion is that the first three are accidental (but still punishable) while the last is true negligence.
As an aside I have never been comfortable with the C6 and C9 clearing procedure. It is the only one I know of that actually increases the readiness state of the weapon system as part of the unload. There is probably no way around it but I'd be interested in the thoughts of the weapons SMEs here (as I am certainly not one!).
Cheers,
2B
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2Bravo said:
How about sticking the mag back in the pistol to release the hammer (as per drill). I never get tired of the entertainment provided by watching a rear-ech type get a fidgety, nervous, and basically do everything to avoid sticking a loaded mag into the pistol.
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I trip the pistol with my finger - the mag disconect should have been removed long ago. IMHO this is a safety issue that the LCMM shoudl have addressed (I was told to STFU on this issue BTW :
)
The problem with changing the MG drills is if you dont ensure it is cocked it (the bolt) could be caught and release when the feed cover is opened. I had that happen and a small breech explosion occured with a C6 (my fault) luckily myself, the operator and the weapon were Okay.
)The problem with changing the MG drills is if you dont ensure it is cocked it (the bolt) could be caught and release when the feed cover is opened. I had that happen and a small breech explosion occured with a C6 (my fault) luckily myself, the operator and the weapon were Okay.
TangoTwoBravo
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Infanteer,
The end of the 9mm HP clearing drill does seem a little counter-intuitive! I have seen clearing bays with empty 9mm magazines on chains. I do not have stats, but I figure that the 9mm has to be a contender for most NDs "per capita". It is not the fault of the weapon but rather that we do not train on it enough and then give it to people with bullets. That plus the Hollywood image makes the pistol a candidate for all sorts of misfires.
Kevin,
Seen and thanks for the info. Most of my MG use has been in the vehicle mount (including the good old C5
). One thing that we did to ourselves was to have different MG drills for ground and vehicle mounts. This one has gone back and forth several times in my recollection.
Cheers and Happy New Year to all.
The end of the 9mm HP clearing drill does seem a little counter-intuitive! I have seen clearing bays with empty 9mm magazines on chains. I do not have stats, but I figure that the 9mm has to be a contender for most NDs "per capita". It is not the fault of the weapon but rather that we do not train on it enough and then give it to people with bullets. That plus the Hollywood image makes the pistol a candidate for all sorts of misfires.
Kevin,
Seen and thanks for the info. Most of my MG use has been in the vehicle mount (including the good old C5
). One thing that we did to ourselves was to have different MG drills for ground and vehicle mounts. This one has gone back and forth several times in my recollection.Cheers and Happy New Year to all.
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KevinB said:I trip the pistol with my finger - the mag disconect should have been removed long ago. IMHO this is a safety issue that the LCMM shoudl have addressed (I was told to STFU on this issue BTW :
The problem with changing the MG drills is if you dont ensure it is cocked it (the bolt) could be caught and release when the feed cover is opened. I had that happen and a small breech explosion occured with a C6 (my fault) luckily myself, the operator and the weapon were Okay.
Ok, I'm a little confused over this. I keep hearing the term "breech explosion" and as near as I can tell, it's a holdover from the .50cal and other blowback operated weapons. The C6 and C9 firing pin cannot strike a round unless the bolt is fully locked, at which point the round is in the chamber. Once the bolt is locked and the pin strikes the round, the explosion occurs within the chamber, and since the bolt is LOCKED it cannot shoot back and release any gasses. Gas is directed forward, through the barrel, and some is redirected back through the gas mechanism. When that gas pushes on the piston, ONLY THEN is the bolt unlocked and the chamber exposed. So at no point in the entire cycle is there a chance for hot gasses and/or bits of carbon/metal to come out of the chamber.
So the point of that long winded explanation is this: where exactly is the danger? With a blowback operated weapon (eg. .50 cal) you'd get carbon and gas shooting up in your face, but theoreticaly with the C6 and C9 you should be able to fire the weapon quite safely with the feed cover open.
And sorry for going off topic, I know this doesn't really fall into the realm of ND's but it's something that's been bugging me for a long time. I'd appreciate it if anyone can enlighten me.
Also, as far as the C6 and the C9 being the only weapons where you have to increase the readiness state of the weapon during the unload....as long as your finger isn't on the thrigger, you don't have a problem
You should be treating your weapon as if it's ready to fire at all times anyway, so it should make no difference if you increase the readiness state. It all comes down to good drills, and that depends on proper training and lots of repetition/experience.
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JRMACDONALD said:
Well im glad to see someone acknowledging the possibility of firearms malfunction. Infact over the past summer I went with a bunch of fellow gun plumbers to respond to AD/ND's 2 out of the 3 times we went it was actually firearms malfunction. Not always the operator at fault. But I deffinatley agree there needs to be better training in regards to safteying the weapon that you are using and keeping the trigger clear when there is no need to use it.
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KevinB said:
The Coax C-6 is a different barrel, and there are different drills. We can't just reach fwd and change the gas regulator. Or as in the new barrel, unload, change barrels, allow to cool, strip and change regulator repeat as necesarry. What I never agreed with on the Coax was the Half Load, Load, and Make Safe. These drills I found confusing and unsafe.
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AD/NDs came up only in the 90s. I mean hard. Before, no one really cared. My father told me of more ADs happening in the Army wayback when. It was the different train of though. IT's a AD or ND. A AD is just that Accidental . A ND is negligent. We are all human, things happen. Remember the old SMG. Dam* all you had to do is look at it and it went off. The old Cougar foot firing pedal, some times you just sneezed and it fired, if the cable was too tight.
Inf, your close on the rd going off. It is because it is a hold over from the 50/30 Cal. The were rearward feed. The bolt would pickup a new rd going to the rear. The C6/C9 is a forward feed. It picks up ard when it goes forward.
Kevin B, Armour drills are different, than Inf drills. That is why, you have an Armour SME and INF SME. Remember the Armour way is to keep the veh fighting. You can use the main gun without the Co ax. Also it has a firing circuit and the Inf has a 2 and 3 man C6 team.
Love All C6s have the same gas reg. There is nothing confusing. Half load is just to put the damn rds on the feed tray. Load you cock the thing. Make safe. put it on safe. In vehs the (LEO) Loader would put the weapon on safe, and switch the loader's box to safe. The gunner would switch the laser off and finish his gunners drill. In a Cougar, the CC would just put it on safe, the Coyote the CC would put it on safe and the gunner would put his CDA to safe. TOOOO EASY.
I knew Cpl Able of the CAR. Killed as a accident in the back of a bison.
Inf, your close on the rd going off. It is because it is a hold over from the 50/30 Cal. The were rearward feed. The bolt would pickup a new rd going to the rear. The C6/C9 is a forward feed. It picks up ard when it goes forward.
Kevin B, Armour drills are different, than Inf drills. That is why, you have an Armour SME and INF SME. Remember the Armour way is to keep the veh fighting. You can use the main gun without the Co ax. Also it has a firing circuit and the Inf has a 2 and 3 man C6 team.
Love All C6s have the same gas reg. There is nothing confusing. Half load is just to put the damn rds on the feed tray. Load you cock the thing. Make safe. put it on safe. In vehs the (LEO) Loader would put the weapon on safe, and switch the loader's box to safe. The gunner would switch the laser off and finish his gunners drill. In a Cougar, the CC would just put it on safe, the Coyote the CC would put it on safe and the gunner would put his CDA to safe. TOOOO EASY.
I knew Cpl Able of the CAR. Killed as a accident in the back of a bison.
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Recce 41,
All C-6s NOW have the same gas regulators. As far as the drills go, the point I was making was the 2 different drills cause some confusion. I still see people whom where taught C-6 on the QL3 Armd preform the Coax drills when on a conventional range. The dismounted drill to load is; Open the Feed cover, place the belt on and close the feed cover. Where as the Coax load involves readying the weapon. The Make Safe for Dismounted role is; unload followed by a load, again where as the coax way is simply placing the wpn on safe. The confusion does occur, and I feel it's unsafe.
All C-6s NOW have the same gas regulators. As far as the drills go, the point I was making was the 2 different drills cause some confusion. I still see people whom where taught C-6 on the QL3 Armd preform the Coax drills when on a conventional range. The dismounted drill to load is; Open the Feed cover, place the belt on and close the feed cover. Where as the Coax load involves readying the weapon. The Make Safe for Dismounted role is; unload followed by a load, again where as the coax way is simply placing the wpn on safe. The confusion does occur, and I feel it's unsafe.
TangoTwoBravo
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Turret drills do need to be a bit different due to the issue of hydralics and stabilization. You don't want to mess with the feed cover on the coax (especially in the Leopard) when in stab on the move as all sorts of bad things can happen. My apologies to all for taking this thread down a sidetrack about MG drills.
Cheers,
2B
Cheers,
2B
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Yes but the problem is the 031's also have the LAV...
Our MG drills are now two different drills - on the same gun.
On firearm malfunction:
I shoot a lot (in excess of 20K rounds / year - not counting beltfed fun) I have seen two AD's (I consider the mechanical breakdown not a ND) form this - one with a C9 where a solider was shot in Afghanistan (the saftey button retainign spring thingy had snapped and got caught between the breechblock and the sear... then released when the weapon was moved), and once on a range in Canada where a C7 that was recently ATI'd had so little hammer/disconnect contact it went off. Two area that need to be addressed with this issue - both troops and Weapon techs need to be trained (or retrained in some respects) on what to look for while doing weapons maintenance or inspections. Weapons over the end of their service life have to be retired - not just sent back with a serviceable tag until they fail and cause death or injury.
Perfect Practice makes perfect - we need the weapons we use overseas in all of out training (pistols, shotguns, carbines etc.) and we need to use them a lot more than we do.
Our MG drills are now two different drills - on the same gun.
On firearm malfunction:
I shoot a lot (in excess of 20K rounds / year - not counting beltfed fun) I have seen two AD's (I consider the mechanical breakdown not a ND) form this - one with a C9 where a solider was shot in Afghanistan (the saftey button retainign spring thingy had snapped and got caught between the breechblock and the sear... then released when the weapon was moved), and once on a range in Canada where a C7 that was recently ATI'd had so little hammer/disconnect contact it went off. Two area that need to be addressed with this issue - both troops and Weapon techs need to be trained (or retrained in some respects) on what to look for while doing weapons maintenance or inspections. Weapons over the end of their service life have to be retired - not just sent back with a serviceable tag until they fail and cause death or injury.
Perfect Practice makes perfect - we need the weapons we use overseas in all of out training (pistols, shotguns, carbines etc.) and we need to use them a lot more than we do.
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Kevin/Love
We also have the two drills. If it has a bipod,you do Inf drills. If it doesn't you do Armour drills. The Armour had the C6 before the Inf . They still had the C5 when we had it. When we first had the LEOs, we were the SMEs for the C6. Then when the Inf received theirs. Due to it was a 7.62 (small arm). They became the SMEs.
The Armour has had to change all their gun drills for the LEO, and the Coyote. Because the Inf did like to drills for the 25MM. ie Battle Sabot. Is now Sabot Battle. There is many more. This has also caused problems for us. I still do the old orginial 25mm drills. But I could have a new gunner.
We have had ADs not NDs due to this.
We also have the two drills. If it has a bipod,you do Inf drills. If it doesn't you do Armour drills. The Armour had the C6 before the Inf . They still had the C5 when we had it. When we first had the LEOs, we were the SMEs for the C6. Then when the Inf received theirs. Due to it was a 7.62 (small arm). They became the SMEs.
The Armour has had to change all their gun drills for the LEO, and the Coyote. Because the Inf did like to drills for the 25MM. ie Battle Sabot. Is now Sabot Battle. There is many more. This has also caused problems for us. I still do the old orginial 25mm drills. But I could have a new gunner.
We have had ADs not NDs due to this.
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I remember the C5...
My point is that someone should cross the road in Gagetown and come to a meeting of the minds on a set standard drill.
Who is ever the 25mm SME that okay'd the gunnery precise needs a large kick upside the head with a frozen ski boot.
My point is that someone should cross the road in Gagetown and come to a meeting of the minds on a set standard drill.
Who is ever the 25mm SME that okay'd the gunnery precise needs a large kick upside the head with a frozen ski boot.
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KevinB
A what do you mean by that? As stated we (Armour) had the C6 yrs before the Inf. You cannot do Inf drills in a veh! Lance, can you add to this. We in the Armour Corp have change for the Inf. We did ALL Armour drills, even on the ground.
A what do you mean by that? As stated we (Armour) had the C6 yrs before the Inf. You cannot do Inf drills in a veh! Lance, can you add to this. We in the Armour Corp have change for the Inf. We did ALL Armour drills, even on the ground.
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Recce41 - I do Inf drills in a vehicle 
I think one weapon one standard must be enforced regardless of role - there must be a compromise solution that puts us all on the same page all the time. Or take the LAVIII and all its weapons away from the Inf - 011 will do it and run their drills while we concentrate on the ground.\\
I think one weapon one standard must be enforced regardless of role - there must be a compromise solution that puts us all on the same page all the time. Or take the LAVIII and all its weapons away from the Inf - 011 will do it and run their drills while we concentrate on the ground.\\
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Or take the LAVIII and all its weapons away from the Inf - 011 will do it and run their drills while we concentrate on the ground.\\That is what most of us hope. By the way, one of the 25 MM SMEs is Inf. On Monday I'll have a talk with him or Lance and get some more info.
Remember though, if do the wrong drill. You are at fault if anything happens. That is why, we most teach both ways. Because the Coyote's spare/AA C6 has a bipod.
Remember though, if do the wrong drill. You are at fault if anything happens. That is why, we most teach both ways. Because the Coyote's spare/AA C6 has a bipod.
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