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Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

Just make the posting process more open.

Need a CPO2 in Timbuktu, put that out there. Let people volunteer for the position. And only post like we do now when we can't get a volunteer.

Side note, offer some serious financial benefits for the posting and make them non taxable.

Hey CPO2 Halifax Tar, thanks for volunteering for that job in Timbuktu, here's 10K, tax free, for taking one for the team. It will be in your account as soon as you RFD in you're new location, or we can cut you a cheque when you clear into the pay office, your choice.

*If you get more than one application/volunteer hold a hiring process and compete them.
I agree with the posting optional part to see if there are any takers, but there is other factors to consider as well.

Say CPO2 bloggins is occupying a even less desirable position they were just posted in to and now are applying anywhere else to escape it. Is the crown going to pay for two moves back to back and still have to find a replacement for the now worse spot?

I honestly feel bad for career managers, it seems to be a position caught between a rock and a hard place. No matter what you do you can’t make everyone happy, and many will hold grudges for things you don’t know anything about but they still blame on your position.

Giving pay bonuses does have some potential merit, but why should the government pay more because some consider a posting less desirable? One mans trash is another mans treasure, so how does one fairly assess if there should be a bonus or not?

Add in the disaster that is the new PLD system and a lot more postings which historically were desirable shall now become terrible ones due to a clear drop in standard of living for the higher ranks.

Lots to consider with the posting system and no matter what path is taken the priority shall always be what the crown needs over the individual.
 
Giving pay bonuses does have some potential merit, but why should the government pay more because some consider a posting less desirable? One mans trash is another mans treasure, so how does one fairly assess if there should be a bonus or not?
It’s to create an incentive to take less desirable postings. If one made postings a « volunteer » sign up for something it would be easy to track what is or isn’t desirable.

One man’s trash can be someone else’s treasure. Incentives just makes sure there is treasure in there somewhere.
 
That's fair, although our trade mafia is pretty strong, so the ability to reach out and screw someone is pretty strong, and while the possibilities for bad postings are small, they do get dolled out with extreme prejudice at times. The downside about a relatively small trade where everyone knows each other I guess.
My trade is 240 all ranks, when we aren't red... We have postings almost everywhere, and some are definitely used as punishment.

/personal rant

I was asked if I'd take Cold Lake APS 2015, while at sea on training for a deployment on WIN summer 2015. I told the CWO that I didn't want Cold Lake again, and that I'd likely release if I was sent there.
Fast forward to spring 2017, I'm deployed on WIN again, and get a call "Pick Shilo or Trenton, and don't play the release card again...". I was at 16.5 years into an IE20... I chose Trenton.

At 18 years in, suddenly the story changed to "What do you want? How can we help you achieve your career goals?"... Forgetting that just a year and a half earlier they were essentially daring me to get out.

Now, a few years later they are pretending that none of that happened, and talking about how "young" I am. :ROFLMAO:

/rant off
 
My trade is 240 all ranks, when we aren't red... We have postings almost everywhere, and some are definitely used as punishment.

/personal rant

I was asked if I'd take Cold Lake APS 2015, while at sea on training for a deployment on WIN summer 2015. I told the CWO that I didn't want Cold Lake again, and that I'd likely release if I was sent there.
Fast forward to spring 2017, I'm deployed on WIN again, and get a call "Pick Shilo or Trenton, and don't play the release card again...". I was at 16.5 years into an IE20... I chose Trenton.

At 18 years in, suddenly the story changed to "What do you want? How can we help you achieve your career goals?"... Forgetting that just a year and a half earlier they were essentially daring me to get out.

Now, a few years later they are pretending that none of that happened, and talking about how "young" I am. :ROFLMAO:

/rant off
You sure you're not a Siggie? That's right up our alley for arbitrary bullshit.

After spending 6 years out west, (24 non consecutive months of which were out in Wainwright) I was told not to get to used to being in Kingston, as "the Brigade is where we employ Sigs, get used to embracing the field life..."

10 years later, that is still absolute BS. The pie chart is now inverted the other way and employ most of our people outside the CA.

I have also noticed the script gets flipped on the officer side comparatively, in the sense that my CM meeting is more of a conversation with give and take, vice receiving sentencing when I was a NCO.

it's really a garbled mess of broken telephone how we communicate career progression and HR practices...
 
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I have also noticed the script gets flipped on the officer side comparatively, in the sense that my CM meeting is more of a conversation with give and take, vice receiving sentencing when I was a NCO.
Agreed, at least from what I hear from NCMs I work with. That's not specifically an officer vs NCM issue (or shouldn't) - it's the NCM CMs holding onto the old-school top-down HR practices.

Also, anecdotally, I am encouraged to speak to my CM whenever I want, without anyone else listening. That may not be the case for Pte Bloggins.
 
I think the pay differences now will really be a hard sell for people that really like the S1 type work to jump through the hoops for promotions. For some trades that was an issue even before this, so will be interesting to see how many MarTechs stop at S1/MS level where they still turn wrenches, and don't want to do the Cert 2/3/4 packages, which are a huge amount of work and responsibility. I'm sure there are a lot of other trades in the same boat.

On the officer side, the Maj/LCdr ranks is a pretty sweet spot for doing trade related work with a solid pay, so similarly curious how many people will hard stop there voluntarily. It can be hard to tell though as it's easy to do it artificially by not having an valid language profile, as that doesn't risk punishment postings for opting out.

I conversion I overheard at work today was an aircraft technician arguing that he would make more money remusteringto to bosun because he would get more CFHD and the difference between base and Spec1 is lower. This is as the RCAF technician trades are hemmoraging people.

While I think his example was based on a lack of understanding of how terrible bosun life is, his general point that an A Level Air technician holds an incredible amount of authority and responsibility. Now there is very little difference, only about 250 dollars a month. That isn't much given what is asked of them.
 
Also bear in mind that every occupation is different, despite the CAF having a standard "system".

My CM cuts messages, but the SOA does the posting plot. So the person we have our chat with once a year has nothing to do with our postings, apart from cutting the message. The SOA has other responsibilities, so we have to push our posting preferences through our CoC, and hope that they don't decide that our preferences aren't in our best interests...

There is nothing quite like an opaque system with no accountability to ensure that people feel represented when it comes to their postings/career.
To quote a buddy of mine during his CM interview a few years ago "Why the fuck do I even have CM for?" This was in response to the CM he had nothing to do with getting him a career course.

At least I get to talk to the CM if I want to. My SOAs over the last half decade or so have been more myth than reality. Despite many requests over many forums, I have yet to hear or see anything about the direction of my trade, it's health or what they are doing to improve it. The last time I saw the SOA we got was a "FU we are curtailing promotions" because some people in the trade don't get the experience they need to make AMsup. That was about 8 year ago and in 2016 a Front end analysis was posted without explanation. That's it.


The lack of clarity in their future is a giant factor in releases. It is one of the main factors in my pending release. If I had something to look forward to maybe I would keep kicking my release down the road a few more years. I literally have nothing to look forward to, or if I do no one will tell anyone.
 
I conversion I overheard at work today was an aircraft technician arguing that he would make more money remusteringto to bosun because he would get more CFHD and the difference between base and Spec1 is lower. This is as the RCAF technician trades are hemmoraging people.

While I think his example was based on a lack of understanding of how terrible bosun life is, his general point that an A Level Air technician holds an incredible amount of authority and responsibility. Now there is very little difference, only about 250 dollars a month. That isn't much given what is asked of them.

My stance has always been that AVN/AVS are paid extremely well, plus all the benefits etc, compared to the AME side of civy world. Civy maintenance world is cut throat and most people who release go on to do other things unrelated to aviation. I agree though that the pay disparity between non-spec and spec is a joke. The air tech trades need their own pay scale….ALL NCM trades need their own pay scales to compete with the civilian world. This rank-based pay system is outdated and doesn’t factor in experience and responsibly.
 
Again, my sarcasm game was weak. It's the exact opposite of a retention tool, as people advance they get less benefit, and take home close to the same pay they would at a lower rank. It creates an incentive to not advance in places with a large CFHD. When it was announced, I ran the numbers quickly for Ottawa, and the "pay" difference between a S04 S1 and S04 PO1 was about $800 a month. It's close to double that in locations without CFHD.

Sorry I missed your sarcasm completely then haha

I dunno, I kinda saw a valid possibility in there. Pay and time-in are highly correlated in the CAF, and the closer someone gets to 25 years the tighter those pension handcuffs get around their wrists. So this increased pay at the lower levels could get more people to that lock-in point (obviously that's an immeasurably different point for everyone) before the downside of this starts to hit them.

But I guess that goes to my unintended consequences point, there's a million scenarios that will unfold and how they look when aggregated is a guessing game, which is why they should just stick to sound HR policies as that's the best hope they've got. There's an easy argument for compensation to be adjusted geographically due to different labour markets / costs of living, there's also an easy argument that lower salaries are disproportionately effected and therefore the pay adjustment needs to be a somewhat sliding scale.

It would be interesting to get rid of PLD/CFHD, Spec Pay, etc., altogether and actually restructure the ranks and pay scales in accordance with market rates.

Try tying the various NCM salaries to what skilled tradesmen make in each market. In some cases it will be an easy comparison, in some others it would be require a bit more thought but not that much. An apprentice Carpenter makes ~$36/hr in Vancouver. So we'd be paying Privates/new Corporals around $75k a year in Vancouver, with 4 weeks paid vacation and a great pension. That's more than CPA Articling student with an accounting major makes (the latter obviously having higher earning potential in the long-run)... so a Pte(T) / new Corporal making more money than untrained 2LT... all seems to make sense to me.

Now said Cpl with $75k/year salary is posted to Edmonton, ends up taking a decrease in $4-5k decrease in gross pay but his new mortgage is much cheaper...

(Would also need to re-jig some rank characteristics i.e. as soon as you are fully trained and at OFP, you are not longer a 2Lt, you're an Lt with payscales that match that. No more of this silliness where a 2Lt is a Pl Comd for a 2 years in Battalion and hands his Platoon over to a Captain that just finished Phase training and makes $20k more a year than him.)

Could be a lot simpler to administer, gets rid of a lot of fights over spec pay and cost of living markers. At least it's a transparent system with actual industry markers used and it becomes very difficult to argue "well I could just jump to the private sector and make way more money." Add in some kind of posting bonus regardless of where the posting is (literally, here's a chunk of change, no strings attached, to compensate you for your mobility which is a trait the CAF desires) and I think you're in a better place.

In other words, I suggest a complete overhaul of rank requirements and compensation be looked at, so good luck!!!

Just make the posting process more open.

Need a CPO2 in Timbuktu, put that out there. Let people volunteer for the position. And only post like we do now when we can't get a volunteer.

Side note, offer some serious financial benefits for the posting and make them non taxable.

Hey CPO2 Halifax Tar, thanks for volunteering for that job in Timbuktu, here's 10K, tax free, for taking one for the team. It will be in your account as soon as you RFD in you're new location, or we can cut you a cheque when you clear into the pay office, your choice.

*If you get more than one application/volunteer hold a hiring process and compete them.

Worth noting that the CAF, nor the Treasury Board, nor the Executive branch of government, can decide whether or not something is taxable. What's considered "income" and therefore taxable is provided in the Income Tax Act, a piece of legislation, and so the legislation would need to be amended.

Giving pay bonuses does have some potential merit, but why should the government pay more because some consider a posting less desirable? One mans trash is another mans treasure, so how does one fairly assess if there should be a bonus or not?

Because the labour market demands it. Every employer has to pay more to get workers to go somewhere that is, on the aggregate, less desireable. The question is why shouldn't the government pay more like everyone else has to?
 
My stance has always been that AVN/AVS are paid extremely well, plus all the benefits etc, compared to the AME side of civy world. Civy maintenance world is cut throat and most people who release go on to do other things unrelated to aviation. I agree though that the pay disparity between non-spec and spec is a joke. The air tech trades need their own pay scale….ALL NCM trades need their own pay scales to compete with the civilian world. This rank-based pay system is outdated and doesn’t factor in experience and responsibly.
I think if you even looked at the PS payscale structure it would be better than what we have now.

I have lost many a good tech to SMCs and SSC because they're doing g the exact same job they did for the CAF, just with less BS and 20% more on average. Why? Spec Pay is still based on a percentage more of Base Pay, that is factored off the lowest PS pay scale available.

If someone has the skills and knowledge to be hired at a much higher pay incentive, even within a government agency and not the private sector; we need to take another look at our pay structure.
 
I think if you even looked at the PS payscale structure it would be better than what we have now.
The structure may be worth looking at. It is based on various classifications and is position based. The issue is that there is so much discrepancy between similar positions and jobs between various departments and agencies. Even more so when you leave the NCR orbit.
I have lost many a good tech to SMCs and SSC because they're doing g the exact same job they did for the CAF, just with less BS and 20% more on average. Why? Spec Pay is still based on a percentage more of Base Pay, that is factored off the lowest PS pay scale available.
That would depend on the PS classification. But the point is valid.
If someone has the skills and knowledge to be hired at a much higher pay incentive, even within a government agency and not the private sector; we need to take another look at our pay structure.
Agreed.
 
I think if you even looked at the PS payscale structure it would be better than what we have now.

I have lost many a good tech to SMCs and SSC because they're doing g the exact same job they did for the CAF, just with less BS and 20% more on average. Why? Spec Pay is still based on a percentage more of Base Pay, that is factored off the lowest PS pay scale available.

If someone has the skills and knowledge to be hired at a much higher pay incentive, even within a government agency and not the private sector; we need to take another look at our pay structure.

There aren't any PS positions for air tech trades, that I know of, which are directly transferable.
 
There aren't any PS positions for air tech trades, that I know of, which are directly transferable.
Valid. I was merely using my own wheelhouse for comparison. I am certain there would be an ENG equivalent, but I would have to leave that up to brighter minds than mine.
 

General Labour and Trades – Aircraft Maintaining (GL-AIM) Sub-group Definition​

This sub-group includes such occupations as aero-engine mechanic, aircraft mechanic and related supervisors at classification levels 9 to 14 inclusive.

Not sure that is comparable though.
 
Sorry I missed your sarcasm completely then haha

I dunno, I kinda saw a valid possibility in there. Pay and time-in are highly correlated in the CAF, and the closer someone gets to 25 years the tighter those pension handcuffs get around their wrists. So this increased pay at the lower levels could get more people to that lock-in point (obviously that's an immeasurably different point for everyone) before the downside of this starts to hit them.

But I guess that goes to my unintended consequences point, there's a million scenarios that will unfold and how they look when aggregated is a guessing game, which is why they should just stick to sound HR policies as that's the best hope they've got. There's an easy argument for compensation to be adjusted geographically due to different labour markets / costs of living, there's also an easy argument that lower salaries are disproportionately effected and therefore the pay adjustment needs to be a somewhat sliding scale.

It would be interesting to get rid of PLD/CFHD, Spec Pay, etc., altogether and actually restructure the ranks and pay scales in accordance with market rates.

Try tying the various NCM salaries to what skilled tradesmen make in each market. In some cases it will be an easy comparison, in some others it would be require a bit more thought but not that much. An apprentice Carpenter makes ~$36/hr in Vancouver. So we'd be paying Privates/new Corporals around $75k a year in Vancouver, with 4 weeks paid vacation and a great pension. That's more than CPA Articling student with an accounting major makes (the latter obviously having higher earning potential in the long-run)... so a Pte(T) / new Corporal making more money than untrained 2LT... all seems to make sense to me.

Now said Cpl with $75k/year salary is posted to Edmonton, ends up taking a decrease in $4-5k decrease in gross pay but his new mortgage is much cheaper...

(Would also need to re-jig some rank characteristics i.e. as soon as you are fully trained and at OFP, you are not longer a 2Lt, you're an Lt with payscales that match that. No more of this silliness where a 2Lt is a Pl Comd for a 2 years in Battalion and hands his Platoon over to a Captain that just finished Phase training and makes $20k more a year than him.)

Could be a lot simpler to administer, gets rid of a lot of fights over spec pay and cost of living markers. At least it's a transparent system with actual industry markers used and it becomes very difficult to argue "well I could just jump to the private sector and make way more money." Add in some kind of posting bonus regardless of where the posting is (literally, here's a chunk of change, no strings attached, to compensate you for your mobility which is a trait the CAF desires) and I think you're in a better place.

In other words, I suggest a complete overhaul of rank requirements and compensation be looked at, so good luck!!!

This! With special emphasis on the last paragraph.

The right answers aren't usually the easy ones @ballz . Excellent post.
 
Because the labour market demands it. Every employer has to pay more to get workers to go somewhere that is, on the aggregate, less desireable. The question is why shouldn't the government pay more like everyone else has to?
Simplest answer is we cannot afford it. We are already too expensive of a organization, most our budget goes to personnel already and we can barely afford any kit as is. I would love for everyone to be able to get 1 million dollars a year in salary, however its not realistic.

The goal isn’t to make people get rich, its to protect the country. Sometimes sacrifices must be made for that goal to be achieved. We are already the best conpensated military in the world.

The solution to the problem of differing standards of living in different areas is to build on base housing that is rented to all troops at a fixed amount of their income. None of this market price bull.

If you choose to live on the economy then, its your choice. No PLD. No house hunting trips. You know no matter where you go you can have the same basic standard of living for the exact same cost. As such you wouldn’t need any of those benefits as it would be standardized and your living conditions wouldn’t fluctuate depending on where you are.

Attempting to pay individuals the difference will cost much more money for the government in the long term than simply accepting getting rid of on base housing was a mistake and one we should have corrected over a decade ago.
 
Simplest answer is we cannot afford it. We are already too expensive of a organization, most our budget goes to personnel already and we can barely afford any kit as is. I would love for everyone to be able to get 1 million dollars a year in salary, however its not realistic.

The CAF can't spend the budget it has. Moreover, some of the savings would be generated from other trades/occupations that are overpaid. It might not be a budget-neutral move, but it might be close. Can't know until an actual overhaul is looked at.

The solution to the problem of differing standards of living in different areas is to build on base housing that is rented to all troops at a fixed amount of their income. None of this market price bull.

How cheap is that? I think the math would show it's cheaper to pay people market rates for the market they are in, than short change them a small amount but build them a house........
 
The CAF can't spend the budget it has. Moreover, some of the savings would be generated from other trades/occupations that are overpaid. It might not be a budget-neutral move, but it might be close. Can't know until an actual overhaul is looked at.



How cheap is that? I think the math would show it's cheaper to pay people market rates for the market they are in, than short change them a small amount but build them a house........
If you build on base housing then it will eventually pay itself off. Extra money given to troops will never come back.
 
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