Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

[Furniture]

You want to be careful about assuming that the grass is greener on the other side of the commissioning fence…

It's not all sunshine and roses, but there is a massive pay difference which draws people out of the Snr NCM world. It might help the "institution", but it hurts the occupations losing their future leaders. It was likely less noticeable when occupations were at healthy numbers, but when an occupation is short, losing some of your best really starts to be noticeable.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Related to this, some of my occupation's best and brightest get lost to commissioning, because the pay gap between a Snr NCM and a Capt is so large. Why be a Sgt or MWO when you can make far more as a Capt with less hassle?

Same with Sigs. No one listened to my suggestions as a Sgt, but they do as a CFRed Lt. The idea remained, the signature block, however, changed the weight apparently.

You want to be careful about assuming that the grass is greener on the other side of the commissioning fence…

Depends how closely related the jobs are. It isn't necessarily greener, but it certainly is getting watered, mown, and taken care of more frequent. Having been on both sides of the fence, there's a lot more effort to maintaining one lawn compared to the other and it shows.

 

[Quirky]

Commissioning is only worth it to increase your pension at the end of your TOS, then again I wouldn't touch any of the RCAF officer trades with a ten foot poll.

 

[Weinie]

It's not all sunshine and roses, but there is a massive pay difference which draws people out of the Snr NCM world. It might help the "institution", but it hurts the occupations losing their future leaders. It was likely less noticeable when occupations were at healthy numbers, but when an occupation is short, losing some of your best really starts to be noticeable.

So would you jump if it was offered to you?

 

[Navy_Pete]

It is a leadership issue, might not be the direct responsibility of the lowest level, but somewhere along the CoC someone is responsible for it. Planning/management is 100% leaderships responsibility. If they don’t like how its being run/it is failing to run efficiently, they have the power to fix it, but also the burden of responsibility for it, both in failure and success.

I guess my point was there is a differentiation between 'leadership' and 'management'. You can be a charismatic leader but a terrible leader, or a really efficient manager without much actual people skills (cough engineers cough). Our PERs and PARs distinguish between both.

We tend to focus on charisma and soft skills on operational side, and more on management on the technical side. Ideally you have both, but in this case you don't actually need to be General Patton to figure out old facilities, with skeleton staffing, high turnover and a lot of secondary demands doesn't really work.

Unfortunately 5-10 year detailed plans, paperwork etc is really low profile, and doing it well isn't recognized, until it isn't done and you have a 10-20 year hole to dig out of. People get promoted out of change and crises management; people who do an excellent job of keeping a ball rolling get a 'met expectations'. People who recognize things are starting to go sideways and try and get it back on track seem to be mostly ignored (usually because something else has already gone way way off track so it isn't the crises of the day).

Current training issues were flagged 10 years ago, and 10 years ago we were working on previous issues that had been flagged 10 years previously. It's not like it's not on the radar, it's just far enough away that it's a 'tomorrow problem'.

 

[Furniture]

So would you jump if it was offered to you?

Likely, who doesn't want more money?

My point is, the pay system incentivizes experienced and capable NCMs to commission, which can hurt NCM occupations. It's not a new thing, but as I mentioned earlier, it disproportionally impacts occupations that are already short.

When you lose some of your best, it results in people who aren't as good advancing. Those people can have a negative impact on the occupation if they get high enough, or get placed into key roles.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Likely, who doesn't want more money?

My point is, the pay system incentivizes experienced and capable NCMs to commission, which can hurt NCM occupations. It's not a new thing, but as I mentioned earlier, it disproportionally impacts occupations that are already short.

When you lose some of your best, it results in people who aren't as good advancing. Those people can have a negative impact on the occupation if they get high enough, or get placed into key roles.

I think the truth is our NCMs and CWO Corps are absolutely ham strung and powerless. And if you actually want to try and affect positive change you absolutely need to be commissioned. Add to that the growing perception, right or wrong, that the ORs are being downright disregarded. So if you want to make life better for them, you can either be on helm or giving directions to the helmsman.

Maybe it's a fanciful memory but I don't remember my CPO2s being so ignored or so dismissed.

Maybe my feet are closer to the fire now so I see it differently.

 

[Weinie]

Likely, who doesn't want more money?

My point is, the pay system incentivizes experienced and capable NCMs to commission, which can hurt NCM occupations. It's not a new thing, but as I mentioned earlier, it disproportionally impacts occupations that are already short.

When you lose some of your best, it results in people who aren't as good advancing. Those people can have a negative impact on the occupation if they get high enough, or get placed into key roles.

So money would stop your complaining about this issue. I'm not judging, just an assessment of your position.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I think the truth is our NCMs and CWO Corps are absolutely ham strung and powerless. And if you actually want to try and affect positive change you absolutely need to be commissioned. Add to that the growing perception, right or wrong, that the ORs are being downright disregarded. So if you want to make life better for them, you can either be on helm or giving directions to the helmsman.

Maybe it's a fanciful memory but I don't remember my CPO2s being so ignored or so dismissed.

Maybe my feet are closer to the fire now so I see it differently.

I find that once we adopted the "Command Team" idea will vigor that NCOs were viewed as the "doers" vice any form of "planning and expertise."

When it's expected that the Troop WO/SSM/RSM parrots the Troop Comd/OC/CO, but with a different voice, it's hard to prevent the echo chamber of bad ideas...

 

[Furniture]

So money would stop your complaining about this issue. I'm not judging, just an assessment of your position.

Why make it personal?

Though, yes... Closing the gap in compensation between Snr NCMs and Jr officers would make the complaint go away, and would likely incentivize capable, and motivated NCMs to stay within their occupations.

 

[dapaterson]

Why make it personal?

Though, yes... Closing the gap in compensation between Snr NCMs and Jr officers would make the complaint go away, and would likely incentivize capable, and motivated NCMs to stay within their occupations.

I mean, there are two ways to narrow the gap...

 

[Halifax Tar]

I mean, there are two ways to narrow the gap...

First you offer me Valcatraz and now this lol

You're just mean lol

 

[Navy_Pete]

I think the truth is our NCMs and CWO Corps are absolutely ham strung and powerless. And if you actually want to try and affect positive change you absolutely need to be commissioned. Add to that the growing perception, right or wrong, that the ORs are being downright disregarded. So if you want to make life better for them, you can either be on helm or giving directions to the helmsman.

Maybe it's a fanciful memory but I don't remember my CPO2s being so ignored or so dismissed.

Maybe my feet are closer to the fire now so I see it differently.

lol, meanwhile trying to make positive changes with a commision, tend to complain that you find out you don't actually have authority to do it without a dozen other stakeholders approving it first.

Was eye opening talking to someone who retired a while ago (after about a 50 year combined career) where they basically ran a major project as a two ringer, that required a 3 ringer to sign off on, where we now would have first have to jump through 14 approval gates with TBS in a joint submission with PSPC, ISED etc.

He definitely accomplished far more in a same time period as what I did in a similar rank and unit, but I probably spent about 80% of my time getting approvals, 15% doing, and 5% on oversight reporting where he spent 99% of his time 'doing'.

I don't think it's really a rank thing, more of a general GoC trend for additional 'oversight and collaboration' that has added on layers and layers of extra work. It's awesome to be able to reach out and talk to a SME on something when you need to, it's terrible when 100 people all are mandated to get the same SME to review something before moving on.

I get some things like that to review as a SME and the only way to triage things is to review them, so something can sit for months before I get to it, and realize it's a rubber stamp of an N/A scenario. Super frustrating for everyone.

 

[Halifax Tar]

lol, meanwhile trying to make positive changes with a commision, tend to complain that you find out you don't actually have authority to do it without a dozen other stakeholders approving it first.

Was eye opening talking to someone who retired a while ago (after about a 50 year combined career) where they basically ran a major project as a two ringer, that required a 3 ringer to sign off on, where we now would have first have to jump through 14 approval gates with TBS in a joint submission with PSPC, ISED etc.

He definitely accomplished far more in a same time period as what I did in a similar rank and unit, but I probably spent about 80% of my time getting approvals, 15% doing, and 5% on oversight reporting where he spent 99% of his time 'doing'.

I don't think it's really a rank thing, more of a general GoC trend for additional 'oversight and collaboration' that has added on layers and layers of extra work. It's awesome to be able to reach out and talk to a SME on something when you need to, it's terrible when 100 people all are mandated to get the same SME to review something before moving on.

I get some things like that to review as a SME and the only way to triage things is to review them, so something can sit for months before I get to it, and realize it's a rubber stamp of an N/A scenario. Super frustrating for everyone.

I don't think anyone assumes that you guys can just MSH. But you have a better seat at the table than the rest of us and more opportunity to influence the institution.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I find that once we adopted the "Command Team" idea will vigor that NCOs were viewed as the "doers" vice any form of "planning and expertise."

When it's expected that the Troop WO/SSM/RSM parrots the Troop Comd/OC/CO, but with a different voice, it's hard to prevent the echo chamber of bad ideas...

Here is controversial position: there is no such thing as “command team”.

Command is neither a team sport, nor a committee. That does not mean a good commander does not seek out and listen to good advice from whatever rank level has it, but at the end of the day, there is only one decision maker. And only one person to accept the blame/responsibility if it goes wrong.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I don't think anyone assumes that you guys can just MSH. But you have a better seat at the table than the rest of us and more opportunity to influence the institution.

I think it depends on the job/unit; I think the most real influence I had was as a two ringer HOD on ship, and then got promoted, and posted to an Ottawa job where I felt like a NCdt again. Depends on the table I guess; sometimes big fish in small pond, then you get dropped into a lake and become small fry again.

No complaints, just an observation. Essentially went from being near the top of one org chart, to the bottom of a different org chart (in real terms).

I've also seen what kind of workload comes with that kind of influence at the Snr Officer/GOFO level at the big level, and that's a hard no for me. I'm not very good at work/life balance at the best of times, and it's really easy to add more to your plate the higher you go.

Probably sucks for the L1s though, to spend decades of their lives working towards a job, then realizing that things like PLD are completely outside of their influence, even though they are theoretically at the pinnacle for their trade, and in some cases, 3rd party consultants have more real influence on major decisions.

Remember reading soemthing similar along those lines with a few US military folks that were up-and-comers that specifically pulled the pin for that reason, and the one guy was quite clear that he figured he could make much more of a genuine impact working for a think tank type organization that fed into the Pentagon, then if he stayed in uniform. It was an interesting observation, and I think probably applies as well to us.

 

[dapaterson]

A friend is a couple steps below C suite in a multi billion corporation, and also a reservist.

He noted that in business, senior leaders get into those positions younger, then have much longer tenures, so they are able to plan and implement a long term vision; they aren't a two year caretaker for a chair.

Imagine someone named CDS at 45, and staying the the job a decade.

Some of the "can't do it" frustration of GOFOs is really "can't do it in my tenure". The excellent ones put things in place on those longer horizons, so their successors benefit from the hard work they put in at the front end

The poor quality ones make undeliverable promises, or announcements outside their legal authority, leaving messes for others to clean up.

 

[CountDC]

So would you jump if it was offered to you?

I absolutely would for the increased pension.

In some places It has become that SNCMs are so micro-managed to be treated as Pte/Cpls used to be. Part of my rank/trade job description is to interpret higher level policies and write unit policies. In practice what is expected is - just ignore that crap and do what the officer tells you as you're only an ncm with a million years experience while he/she was commissioned yesterday and has an arts degree thus knows more. Of course when things go wrong it is your fault as you should have known better with all your experience.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I absolutely would for the increased pension.

In some places It has become that SNCMs are so micro-managed to be treated as Pte/Cpls used to be. Part of my rank/trade job description is to interpret higher level policies and write unit policies. In practice what is expected is - just ignore that crap and do what the officer tells you as you're only an ncm with a million years experience while he/she was commissioned yesterday and has an arts degree thus knows more. Of course when things go wrong it is your fault as you should have known better with all your experience.

The whole system is frigged,......worked great 200 years ago, but where is the initiative for the 'new upper class' to change anything?
It'd be like asking a Union if they needed less employees.....

 

[Gjm]

anyone able to tell me the current Pld for Coldlake and trenton?