Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

[ballz]

Here is how Canada's consumer basket of goods is weighted...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/canadas-cpi-basket-of-goods-and-services/article2307734/

I'd still like to know more details on it, but I always find they are hard to find. Interesting to note though, is that Food, Shelter, and Transportation make up for 64.1%, so if the PLD formula has any correlation to it (I can't think of any logical reason that it wouldn't... but perhaps by now I should know better...) those 3 things *should* be able to explain why, by and large, why one place is getting more than another.

Thinking of Halifax and Edmonton who have similar rates.... the price of shelter (the biggest factor of all) is definitely higher in Edmonton, but transportation and food is definitely cheaper.

Thinking of Halifax and St. John's who are about $500 different, I am still stumped ???

 

[armyvern]

There's the larger question of why CF members declare a primary residence, vote in the elections there, yet pay taxes where they are currently posted. 

Shouldn't CF members pay taxes in the province where they have declared their residence (the US military does this)?

And the logical follow on - shouldn't IPR moves only be permitted to the place where you've declared your residence?

Here's my situation.

I'm posted to Kingston and 9er D is in Quebec. He has the residence, I'm the unaccompanied. Because our primary residence is in Quebec, we both have to file Quebec taxes. Quebec taxes are deducted from my pay in Ontario.

Because he is posted in Quebec, he gets PLD. I do not - even though I am paying the much-higher Quebec tax rate. If we were both posted "in" Quebec, we would both get PLD although mine would be at the reduced rate. So, I pay Quebec taxes etc, yet receive no offset via any 'partial to the partial' PLD - somewhat understandable as I only spend weekends there ... but the taxes here will irritate the hell out of anyone sane!!

So, if PLD is based partially upon the tax rate one is paying upon their income ... you'd think that 'partially' would apply when one is indeed paying the increased tax rate. It doesn't.

Utopia - a place we're all looking for.  8)

 

[Infanteer]

There's the larger question of why CF members declare a primary residence, vote in the elections there, yet pay taxes where they are currently posted. 

Shouldn't CF members pay taxes in the province where they have declared their residence (the US military does this)?

And the logical follow on - shouldn't IPR moves only be permitted to the place where you've declared your residence?

How is primary residence declared?  On the Tax Return.  If so, my primary residence and my posting are the same place.  My "ordinary residence" is, at this time, in BC because I haven't bothered to change my Statement of Ordinary Residence since I enrolled.  There is nothing to say I couldn't change my SOR to match my primary residence where I pay taxes as well.

Perhaps an updated SOR needs to be part of a posting?  Is that legal?

 

[armyvern]

How is primary residence declared?  On the Tax Return.  If so, my primary residence and my posting are the same place.  My "ordinary residence" is, at this time, in BC because I haven't bothered to change my Statement of Ordinary Residence since I enrolled.  There is nothing to say I couldn't change my SOR to match my primary residence where I pay taxes as well.

Perhaps an updated SOR needs to be part of a posting?  Is that legal?

Good catch; I missed that in his post.

We indeed vote for candidates in the riding location that is identified as our "Ordinary Residence" (usually our home towns or the location where we joined the CF), not at our "Primary Residence".

Primary Residence is the location we reside at during our postings and pay taxes at. That's why IPR pays for the move. Our Primary Residence moves with us ... our Ordinary Residence does not.

Of course, the two places could be the same location for a posting or two, but in the vast majority of cases are not.

 

[Infanteer]

I don't know legalities, but I thought checking the address box on your tax return was stating your primary residence.

The Statement of Ordinary Residence is handy for people posted overseas to, say, Germany so that they are able to remain part of the Canadian body politic for the purpose of voting.  But dapaterson raises a good point; if I'm paying taxes in Manitoba, why should I be entitled to cast a vote in Nova Scotia?  Perhaps posting within Canada should require a mandatory SOR - it is merely a clerical matter to get one's ordinary residence changed.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

We were paid in two dollar bills on an end month pay sometime in the Jan-Mar 1959 time frame in Petawawa. There had been quite a bit in the Pembroke Observer on the theme that the camp should be closed and the land opened for development. The practical impact of one two week pay period on Pembroke's economy saw the end of that theory.

And this is not an urban legend. I was a 19-year-old gunner in Petawawa and saw first hand the shopping bags full of two dollar bills in the stores in Pembroke. For maximum impact an end month pay was selected that fell on a Friday. The end month was important as in those pay parade days, the mid month was done to the nearest five below half the net monthly entitlement, while the end month paid to the nearest dollar below the balance. (In this case the end month obviously was to the nearest two bucks.)

They did that with us in the early 70's also, IIRC. Same scenario. Pembroke was whining that they really didn't need the military to survive. Paid us as much in $50 bills as possible. It was impossible to get change in either Pet or Pembroke by 20:00 on Friday. Bars ran us tabs all weekend.

We lost control of those tactics when we moved to banking\ vice Friday Pay Parades.

 

[armyvern]

I don't know legalities, but I thought checking the address box on your tax return was stating your primary residence.

The Statement of Ordinary Residence is handy for people posted overseas to, say, Germany so that they are able to remain part of the Canadian body politic for the purpose of voting.  But dapaterson raises a good point; if I'm paying taxes in Manitoba, why should I be entitled to cast a vote in Nova Scotia?  Perhaps posting within Canada should require a mandatory SOR - it is merely a clerical matter to get one's ordinary residence changed.

I know a few people who do update their SORs with postings; most do not. IIRC, there was a message out a few years ago with the technicalities of SORs.

 

[Infanteer]

Well, both my "ordinary residence" riding and my "primary residence" ridings are quite boring (better chance of seeing the sun explode then seeing things change in these places).  I'm going to find one of those ridings that was decided by a vote or two and change my SOR to that!  >

 

[armyvern]

Well, both my "ordinary residence" riding and my "primary residence" ridings are quite boring (better chance of seeing the sun explode then seeing things change in these places).  I'm going to find one of those ridings that was decided by a vote or two and change my SOR to that!  >

I want to keep my OR exactly where it is ... I am one of the few anti-NDP voters there.  :facepalm:

 

[dapaterson]

How is primary residence declared?  On the Tax Return.  If so, my primary residence and my posting are the same place.  My "ordinary residence" is, at this time, in BC because I haven't bothered to change my Statement of Ordinary Residence since I enrolled.  There is nothing to say I couldn't change my SOR to match my primary residence where I pay taxes as well.

Perhaps an updated SOR needs to be part of a posting?  Is that legal?

My point is that if you are claiming to be "ordinarily resident" in BC for electoral purposes you should also be paying income taxes based on that place of residence - you're only in Alberta because the military obliges you to be there.

And, on release, the military should offer to send you back to the place where you are ordinarily resident or leave you where you are.  The current system is absurd - the CF will pay you to move across the street on release if you choose to do so - and if you're in a service couple, once your spouse retires the CF will pay to move you back across the street to your old house.

 

[armyvern]

My point is that if you are claiming to be "ordinarily resident" in BC for electoral purposes you should also be paying income taxes based on that place of residence - you're only in Alberta because the military obliges you to be there.

And, on release, the military should offer to send you back to the place where you are ordinarily resident or leave you where you are.  The current system is absurd - the CF will pay you to move across the street on release if you choose to do so - and if you're in a service couple, once your spouse retires the CF will pay to move you back across the street to your old house.

But the Ordinary Resident (of) and Primary Resident (of) are two different things with two totally different definitions but you are treating them as if they are the same and have the same implications. I am oridnarily a resident of, but am currently a resident of ...

Taxes go to the place you are utilizing services paid for with those taxes (ie: resident); votes go to the place where  you choose (ie: place on your SOR - it must be a place you have resided in and you have the option to move it with you or continue to vote in your hometown etc where you joined as that is where your "roots" are). I believe that, once retired, you must move your OR to where you've retired at if it's not already there.

Forcing CF members (and this is not applicable to just CF members either, but many more who temporarily [that's a key word] move as part of their job requirements) to change would, sometimes, see them disqualified from voting due to "residential requirements" for time-lengths etc this denying them of their right, as a citizen, to vote. When posted, some provinces have minimum time periods before some benefits kick in - such as healthcare. NB is a good example: posted there on July 1st? Your kids do not qualify until 90 days later and you must use the previous provinces health card etc until then if services are required.

 

[dapaterson]

The challenge is that you are now voting in elections in which you have no financial stake.  And in the palce where you are temporarily residing you have no voice.

So, if you livei n a location where the Raving Loony Clown Party is in power, you are denied the right to vote; they may make decisions that directly impact on you and may raise your taxes.  On the other hand, back home, where you ordinarily reside, the Sensible Shoes Party is in power and cutting taxes; you accrue no benefit from your vote.

"No Taxation Without Representation" is good policy.  Right now, however, CF members moved at the Crown's expense to another province are taxed without representation at the provincial level.

 

[armyvern]

The challenge is that you are now voting in elections in which you have no financial stake.  And in the palce where you are temporarily residing you have no voice.

So, if you livei n a location where the Raving Loony Clown Party is in power, you are denied the right to vote; they may make decisions that directly impact on you and may raise your taxes.  On the other hand, back home, where you ordinarily reside, the Sensible Shoes Party is in power and cutting taxes; you accrue no benefit from your vote.

"No Taxation Without Representation" is good policy.  Right now, however, CF members moved at the Crown's expense to another province are taxed without representation at the provincial level.

I'd counter argue that I do indeed have a stake in long-term policies etc being discussed, debated and voted upon in my hometown as that is where I plan on retiring to at this point of the game. What happens there now can affect me in the long-term ... once these short-term, temporary, moves with the CF are done.

And besides, the CF can offset the short-term financial impacts of temporary moves where costs increase through local or provincial policies and/or pricing in which you have no say (vote) by implementing some type of offsetting system for such if members posted there temporarily experience such ... ooops - that's what PLD does in those locations. Offsets for those difference in taxes, costs, cost of living.

 

[Jed]

I support changing the policy so that all Reg pers would cast their vote in the riding of the incumbent PM.  8)
Now that would give the military a true voice in the Nation's affairs.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I support changing the policy so that all Reg pers would cast their vote in the riding of the incumbent PM.  8)

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

 

[Pusser]

The challenge is that you are now voting in elections in which you have no financial stake.  And in the palce where you are temporarily residing you have no voice.

So, if you livei n a location where the Raving Loony Clown Party is in power, you are denied the right to vote; they may make decisions that directly impact on you and may raise your taxes.  On the other hand, back home, where you ordinarily reside, the Sensible Shoes Party is in power and cutting taxes; you accrue no benefit from your vote.

"No Taxation Without Representation" is good policy.  Right now, however, CF members moved at the Crown's expense to another province are taxed without representation at the provincial level.

Changing the SOR rules won't help this.  The SOR only applies to federal elections, not provincial or municipal ones.  In order to vote in a provincial or municipal election, you have to meet the local requirements.  It is your current residence that matters in this case.  The fact that your SOR is on the other side of the country is irrelevant.  As an aside, I have arrived in a province on the brink of a provincial election a number of times and never had a problem voting in that election.

On another note, Ontario has now waived the 90 residency requirement for health care for military families on posting to Ontario.

 

[Pusser]

Here's my situation.

I'm posted to Kingston and 9er D is in Quebec. He has the residence, I'm the unaccompanied. Because our primary residence is in Quebec, we both have to file Quebec taxes. Quebec taxes are deducted from my pay in Ontario.

Because he is posted in Quebec, he gets PLD. I do not - even though I am paying the much-higher Quebec tax rate. If we were both posted "in" Quebec, we would both get PLD although mine would be at the reduced rate. So, I pay Quebec taxes etc, yet receive no offset via any 'partial to the partial' PLD - somewhat understandable as I only spend weekends there ... but the taxes here will irritate the hell out of anyone sane!!

So, if PLD is based partially upon the tax rate one is paying upon their income ... you'd think that 'partially' would apply when one is indeed paying the increased tax rate. It doesn't.

Utopia - a place we're all looking for.  8)

You should check on this.  As a Married Service Couple, you are NOT on IR.  You have simply been posted without most of your stuff.  I would argue that your primary residence is now in Ontario and that you should be paying taxes accordingly.  This is not an IRP issue.  It's a pay issue, so talk to your OR about this.  If I'm right, you should also be able to go back and re-do your income tax returns from the point you left Quebec and get some money back.

It's worth looking into.

 

[exgunnertdo]

Married Service Couple here too.  When my husband was on "IR" (yes, not technically IR, I know), he got no PLD and I got the 100% rate for where I (and the DHG&E) were located.  Around that time (early 2007) there was a CANFORGEN I think, clarifying this exact issue for MSCs, and pay offices all across Canada had to fix it, and in our case, claw back some PLD from my husband.  Sure they paid me some extra PLD (the difference between 75% and 100%) but in our case that was negligible. 

You should check on this.  As a Married Service Couple, you are NOT on IR.  You have simply been posted without most of your stuff.  I would argue that your primary residence is now in Ontario and that you should be paying taxes accordingly.  This is not an IRP issue.  It's a pay issue, so talk to your OR about this.  If I'm right, you should also be able to go back and re-do your income tax returns from the point you left Quebec and get some money back.

It's worth looking into.

My only point is that I think this issue has worked its way through the system, and "they" have decided this is the correct way to do it for separated MSCs.  It's not an error that Vern's pay office is making. 

Edit to add - Or if you're saying she can pay tax as an Ontario resident, then you may be right.  In that case, convincing the province of Quebec might be harder than convincing the OR.  They won't give up their tax money easily.

 

[armyvern]

...

On another note, Ontario has now waived the 90 residency requirement for health care for military families on posting to Ontario.

Wow; actual progress!!

 

[armyvern]

You should check on this.  As a Married Service Couple, you are NOT on IR.  You have simply been posted without most of your stuff.  I would argue that your primary residence is now in Ontario and that you should be paying taxes accordingly.  This is not an IRP issue.  It's a pay issue, so talk to your OR about this.  If I'm right, you should also be able to go back and re-do your income tax returns from the point you left Quebec and get some money back.

It's worth looking into.

I realize that I am NOT IR ... but I do collect the 'benefits' associated with such (believe it was noted by me that MSC are not IR in this very thread just last week).

This is my 4th posting in this manner. I can assure you that I have checked with Revenue Canada and have received from them, in writing, that my taxes must be filed based upon my "primary residence" and that, in my case, my PR is where my household goods and effects are located.

Point of note: I have never been posted to Quebec. I was unaccompanied in Borden while 9erD was in Pet, I then got posted to Kingston unaccompanied while he remained in Pet. He has since been posted to Quebec and the F&E moved there with him - thus, that is where our household sits officially at this point in time.


Edited to add: I know that I have previously posted on this site, too, about what Revenue Canada has to say about where IR (or MSC posted unaccompanied --- it's just EASIER to type out "IR") have to pay their taxes at and pointed out that the member does NOT get to choose the cheaper of the places, but must file based upon where the F&E is physically located. The CF covers our "unaccompanied", and IR, expenses precisely because we are posted "away from our actual place of residence".