Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

[dapaterson]

That's a great idea for someone who's been in the CF for a few years and has a tour to pay some debt off, but are you going to tell the new private with 2 kids and some college/university debt that they have to go buy a house with no down payment, but its ok that he will get 9 bucks a month (in Kingston anyway) PLD? PLD was broken as soon as Ottawa was made the baseline. But that's no reason to destroy all the PMQs that some of us choose to live in right now. The CF should provide the option, but I agree it should not be at a subsidized rate, the rates simply should not be calculated as they are now. Military housing does not meet the standards of most rentals available on the market and its pricing should not be compared to the civilian market.

The market does a great job of correcting.  If the PMQs are that horrible, no one will stay in them.

CF pay scales are public information.  People join up knowing full well what their pay is going to be.  If they can't manage their money (or if they've chosen to have a family larger than they can support on their pay) it's not the job of the CF to bail them out with additional subsidies and indirect payments.

 

[PuckChaser]

Then on the same token its not the CF's job to ensure they have equity in a home later on. PMQs are great to start your family in and get settled before you buy your first home. Forcing every CF member to live on the economy is just going to further boost every small town that has a base to rely more and more on the military member's money.

 

[MJP]

Forcing every CF member to live on the economy is just going to further boost every small town that has a base to rely more and more on the military member's money.

That argument isn't very sound.  There are very few towns that rely solely on the CF as a majority of their economic base.  Even if they do and the CF leaves, so what?  Towns have withered away and towns have been revived  before and surprisingly it has little impact on Canada as a whole.

 

[PuckChaser]

I don't think Petawawa and Pembroke would be quite so large without all those military families posted nearby, and highly doubtful that houses would cost over $200K.

 

[George Wallace]

That argument isn't very sound.  There are very few towns that rely solely on the CF as a majority of their economic base.  Even if they do and the CF leaves, so what?  Towns have withered away and towns have been revived  before and surprisingly it has little impact on Canada as a whole.

HUH?  Have you been to Petawawa/Pembroke or Moose Jaw?  The CF has significant monitary affect on just these two locations alone.  What about Cold Lake, Bagotville, and so many other locations (other than large metropolitan locations like Toronto, Montreal, Quebec, Halifax, Edmonton, and Victoria) which are bases of significant size in proximity to smaller cities and towns?

Pay the CF member in $2 paper bills and survey the local and take a survey as to what is being placed in business cash registers and you will find the real effect of a CF base on a local economy.

 

[PMedMoe]

Pay the CF member in $2 paper bills and survey the local and take a survey as to what is being placed in business cash registers and you will find the real effect of a CF base on a local economy.

If we still had them.    IIRC, they did that in Petawawa and the local businesses had a huge intake of $2 bills.

 

[MJP]

HUH?  Have you been to Petawawa/Pembroke or Moose Jaw?  The CF has significant monitary affect on just these two locations alone.  What about Cold Lake, Bagotville, and so many other locations (other than large metropolitan locations like Toronto, Montreal, Quebec, Halifax, Edmonton, and Victoria) which are bases of significant size in proximity to smaller cities and towns?

Pay the CF member in $2 paper bills and survey the local and take a survey as to what is being placed in business cash registers and you will find the real effect of a CF base on a local economy.

I think you have an overinflated sense of what the CF brings to many communities.  There are some communities that yes are built around the CF economy but they are the outliers not the norm.  I was mostly referring to places that could be closed down not large bases that are not going anywhere.  I am quite sure that Pet, Bagotville, Cold Lake (although oil is now the reigning king in Cold Lake not the CF) et al are here for the forseeable future.  PC seemed to be alluding that local economies would be linked to the CF if we forced folks to live on the economy.  I am saying that that is a silly argument to make when talking about PLD, PMQs and living on the economy as it doesn't matter.

 

[Old Sweat]

If we still had them.    IIRC, they did that in Petawawa and the local businesses had a huge intake of $2 bills.

We were paid in two dollar bills on an end month pay sometime in the Jan-Mar 1959 time frame in Petawawa. There had been quite a bit in the Pembroke Observer on the theme that the camp should be closed and the land opened for development. The practical impact of one two week pay period on Pembroke's economy saw the end of that theory.

And this is not an urban legend. I was a 19-year-old gunner in Petawawa and saw first hand the shopping bags full of two dollar bills in the stores in Pembroke. For maximum impact an end month pay was selected that fell on a Friday. The end month was important as in those pay parade days, the mid month was done to the nearest five below half the net monthly entitlement, while the end month paid to the nearest dollar below the balance. (In this case the end month obviously was to the nearest two bucks.)

 

[Pusser]

That's a great idea for someone who's been in the CF for a few years and has a tour to pay some debt off, but are you going to tell the new private with 2 kids and some college/university debt that they have to go buy a house with no down payment, but its ok that he will get 9 bucks a month (in Kingston anyway) PLD? PLD was broken as soon as Ottawa was made the baseline. But that's no reason to destroy all the PMQs that some of us choose to live in right now. The CF should provide the option, but I agree it should not be at a subsidized rate, the rates simply should not be calculated as they are now. Military housing does not meet the standards of most rentals available on the market and its pricing should not be compared to the civilian market.

I said no such thing.  My point is that PMQs become a trap that some folks seem to become dependent upon.  The key is to live within your means and not rely upon a tour to pay off debt.  The CF pays its members equally and is not responsible for their lifestyle choices.  I've never bought into the argument that CF housing doesn't meet the local standard and so should be cheaper.  If members feel they're being charged too much and they can get better value for their money, they are free to move out and spend their rent money elsewhere.  It's worth noting that neither the CF nor DND assess the local market or how PMQs fit into it.  This is done by the Canadian Housing and Mortgage Corporation.

 

[George Wallace]

How many Bases have been tearing down PMQs?

Whole PMQ "patches" have disappeared in some locations. 

However, as Pusser states: "PMQs become a trap that some folks seem to become dependent upon".  One should look at the long term and what they will have after the CF.  They won't be living in PMQs. A home is a major expense.  Do not face that huge finacial burden at the end of your career by starting to invest over a long term in a home now.

 

[aesop081]

How many Bases have been tearing down PMQs?

Gagetown, Edmonton, Greenwood, Comox, ......................

 

[Remius]

I once heard somewhere that renting is the better financial option IF, at the end you are saving the difference and interest etc etc that you would have as opposed to buying.  But most people live in the moment.

 

[captloadie]

We have to be careful about putting home ownership on a pedestal and insisting it is what everyone should strive for. Not everyone can nor should buy a house. There are times that people should strongly consider renting. It is for these times that I think there should be MQs, kept in decent shape, at rented at market levels. Especially in those locations where the military isn't one of the large employers.   

 

[dapaterson]

I once heard somewhere that renting is the better financial option IF, at the end you are saving the difference and interest etc etc that you would have as opposed to buying.  But most people live in the moment.

Before I bought my first home (a condo in Ottawa), I compared what I was paying in rent with the monthly costs for the condo.  Renting came out ahead, in the short term.  Longer term, however, assuming no growth in property value, the value of the condo would outstrip the value of the investments - as I recall, the break-even point was at year 5.

By the time I sold, 7 years later, not only was the asset worth mroe than equivalent savings would have been worth, but property values had doubled - so I was far, far ahead by ownign vs renting.

Too many people forget that a home is an asset as well as a residence - including some financial planners.

 

[captloadie]

/tangent
And too many people (especially in the recent past) forget that like any asset, you can end up with much less than you invested. We in the military are fairly insulated from the "real world" regarding realestate. Ask some on here, Heavyreader comes to mind, what happens when you get caught in a bubble, and the Gov't isn't there to cover your behind.
/tangent

I agree with CA, and think that we should scrap the current system and start over.

 

[Rifleman62]

DAP:

By the time I sold, 7 years later, not only was the asset worth more than equivalent savings would have been worth, but property values had doubled - so I was far, far ahead by owning vs renting.

Tax Free!

 

[Sub_Guy]

Gagetown, Edmonton, Greenwood, Comox, ......................

Although in Comox there are (or at least were) plans to build two duplex units, and a new row house structure.  The designs are quite nice, the row house units have a couple 4 bedroom 2400 sq ft unit with ensuite washroom.

I realize building 6 new units does not make up for the numerous buildings they tore down, but it is better than nothing.

 

[Jungle]

Dataperson is right; if you are in a location for 5 years or more, buy. I lived in PMQs for 3 different periods of time, and I have owned 5 houses so far (in the process of negociating the building of my 6th, as I am posted this summer, if they ever cut the &*%*$ messages) and came out much better after having owned then when I rented. You cannot make a profit on an apt.

 

[PuckChaser]

Gagetown, Edmonton, Greenwood, Comox, ......................

Kingston and Ottawa too, but good news, they recycled all those homes and saved money!

 

[armyvern]

9 bucks ? I have been here 3 years, and haven't received a cent of PLD.

k... back on topic now

That's cause people like you and I went there after the baseline was set.