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Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

The revised ruling came down from DCBA over a year ago and basically states,  "If your primary residence isn't as a result of a CF funded relocation (ie; cost move), then the CF isn't responsible for the payment of PLD."

So, that immediately eliminated the payment of PLD for new enrolments (ie; married pers) and restricted CT's unless they were "posted" to the geographical location were they CT'd from.

For the most part, the benefit is tied to a cost move or authorized relocation.
 
That's all well and good DCBA made this ruling but what does the CBI state.  DCBA doesn't trump CBIs.

CBI's state something along the line of "if primary residence is in PLD and member's D HG and E is in the PLDA, they are entitled to PLD, or words to that effect.  I'd have to look at the CBI.

I assisted a friend who CTd a few years ago in Hfx with this; was posted restricted to TE in On, then AP'd back to Hfx BTL.  D HG & E were in Hfx PLDA.  After they looked thru the CBI he put in front of them, PLD was paid.

Unless the CBI has changed....
 
Nope, the CBI has not changed recently.  Nevertheless, there is nothing preventing an Orderly Room, located within a PLD area, to pay a CF member PLD, whether or not the entitlement exists.  So in cases where the situation is not "black and white" (ie; someone is posted in and relocates their family), they really should be seeking clarification.

There is nothing worse, than paying out benefits, only to find out there was no entitlement and the CF member has to pay it back.

DCBA is the OPI for CBI's.  CBI's were created as a means for DND/CF to be able to implement benefit changes quicker without having to go through the long drawn out process of amending a CFAO.

 
You mean QR&O.  CFAOs are policy and relatively easy to amend. Key word being relatively.
 
dapaterson said:
You mean QR&O.  CFAOs are policy and relatively easy to amend. Key word being relatively.

You could be right but my "old school" thinking is "CFAO's amplify QR&O's".  So I know in some but not all cases, it was a nightmare to change any CFAO benefit that was tied to a QR&O.
 
CBI is based on TB policy though isn't it?  If a CBI says "there is an entitlement", DCBA can't contravene that and say "no there isn't!".  Well they can but it wouldn't stand up to review (ie MGERC).
 
Correct - CFAOs amplify QR&Os.  So you usually can't amend the CFAO (or now, replace it with some other form or order) without amending the QR&O (or CBI).  And since CBIs go to TB, and QR&Os go to the governor in council, they make CFAO amendments seem relatively painless.
 
dapaterson said:
Correct - CFAOs amplify QR&Os.  So you usually can't amend the CFAO (or now, replace it with some other form or order) without amending the QR&O (or CBI).  And since CBIs go to TB, and QR&Os go to the governor in council, they make CFAO amendments seem relatively painless.

Sounds like the CBI plan has come back to bite them in the bum......lol
 
Looks like something is in the works. This was posted yesterday:

From:

http://mgerc-ceegm.gc.ca/rec/045-eng.html



Post Living Differential and Transitional Post Living Differential

Case number
•2011-032 (F&R Date: 2011–06–29)
Issue
As a result of changes to Post Living Differential (PLD) and Transitional PLD (TPLD) policies, some Canadian Forces (CF) members living in the National Capital Region (NCR), who were posted to the area before 1 April 2008, continue to receive TPLD to compensate for higher cost of living while others, posted to the NCR after 1 April 2008, do not receive the benefit.  The current application of the PLD/TPLD has created a system of "haves" and "have nots".  This unfairness is not limited to the NCR.  Rather, there are other TPLD areas in Canada which are affected in the same way.

Recommendation
The Board recommended that the Chief of the Defence Staff (CDS) direct a review of the TPLD concept to determine whether it is to be fully implemented or if the CF will simply revert to the PLD construct as it existed prior to the policy changes which led to the current unfairness.  The aim must be to restore fairness in each PLD/TPLD area by providing equal benefits to all CF personnel posted to the same areas.

Final Authority Decision
The CDS was satisfied that DGCB was currently reviewing this issue with TB. Nonetheless, in an attempt to expedite this process, the CDS directed that the CMP liaise with them to verify the current status of TPLD, with a view to determining its future and to restore quality among those affected.

Date modified: 2014-01-22
 
That has got to hurt. 
Clawbacks leave two Nova Scotia navy families high and dry
Beverley Ware
The Chronicle Herald
13 May 2014

On Aug. 1, 2012, Leading Seaman Jeffrey Rissesco received a pay stub saying he owed the navy $51,000.

“He kind of had a bit of a heart attack,” said his wife, Leah.

He wondered how he could possibly owe the military anything, let alone more than $50,000, so he went to the pay office.

“That’s when he discovered military pay unilaterally decided he was no longer within the CFB Halifax service area,” said Leah, who did an interview with The Chronicle Herald because her husband is not allowed.

She said a staff member decided Rissesco, who marks his 30th year of service this year, was no longer eligible to receive a taxable benefit for which he had been approved.

Not only that, he had to pay back the money he had been receiving since October 2001.

“He’s followed the rules, he’s jumped through the hoops, he’s danced the dance. He’s done everything he’s supposed to do,” she said.

But nothing has changed, despite an independent review and ruling that said the navy is wrong.

“When an outside entity looks at this whole situation and says, ‘This is wrong, you’ve made a mistake, fix it,’ well, they haven’t fixed it. … Nine months later, Jeff continues to get garnisheed,” Leah said.

Allen and Laura Barkhouse of Martins Point in Lunenburg County know exactly what the Rissescos are going through. They, too, received a pay stub

20 months ago saying they owed the navy $50,000 and no longer qualified for the taxable benefit.

Allen Barkhouse, a navy lieutenant, filed an internal grievance that has now been referred to the chief of the defence staff, his wife said Monday.

At issue is the geographical boundary for the military’s post living differential, which is a taxable living allowance given to members stationed in different areas of the country.

The Rissescos live in Vaughan, just outside Windsor. They were told their home is on the wrong side of Highway 14, though that is not written in any policy or description. Leah said the house they can see outside their living room window about 300 metres away would qualify.

She said her husband can be aboard HMCS Preserver 60 minutes after leaving the house if there’s an urgent call to duty, pointing out the community itself falls within the military’s boundary for the Halifax base.

Neither family received a written explanation or documentation about the sudden change in their status.

“There is a fundamental lack of logic in the manner in which the boundary is being defined,” says an external review that questions how the part of Vaughan in which the Rissescos live is deemed “on the wrong side of the line when the entire community has been included.”

It says the navy used “an interpretive opinion expressed by a staff office worker at (Maritime Forces Atlantic) headquarters. While I do not dismiss it out of hand as being an unreasonable opinion, neither do I accept that it is the only reasonable possibility.”

Rissesco was being garnisheed the $400 a month he had been receiving for the benefit, plus he no longer gets the payment, which meant an $800 reduction in his monthly pay.

When he completed the 20-year contract he signed to serve in the navy, he was eligible for a severance package and pension. But he was offered a five-year extension and took it. A couple of years in, he was offered and accepted an indefinite extension to serve.

But the military took his more than $25,000 severance package and put it toward the $51,000 it said he owes. It then reduced the amount it is taking off his paycheque to $180 a month from $400.

Rissesco appealed to the Military Grievances External Review Committee, an independent external body, after the military’s internal grievance panel asked him in April 2013 for a year’s extension to hear his case.

Vice-chairman Denis Brazeau, a retired colonel, heard the grievance and presented his findings and recommendations in an 11-page report dated July 18, 2013.

He said Rissesco’s grievance should be upheld, that “the cessation of PLD benefits be repealed and that any money that had been recovered to date be reimbursed.”

His report was sent to the chief of the defence staff 10 months ago.

“To this date, Jeff continues to be garnisheed,” and the benefit has not been restored, his wife said.

A spokesman with the chief of the defence staff says the office can accept, reject or partially accept the grievance committee’s findings. He could not comment on Rissesco’s case specifically.

In the meantime, Leah Rissesco said she has had to sell jewelry her husband bought her so that they can pay bills.

They would not have had a Christmas the past two years for their two children, ages 11 and 22, if not for the money raised by friends from the Bedford Rifle Range and the Military Family Resource Centre, she said.

Brazeau wrote that as a result of issues raised in this case, the policy dealing with boundaries for the post living differential “is currently being rewritten to make the description clearer.”

He wrote that he is “hopeful that this review will clear up the ambiguities of the Halifax boundary.”

Leah said it was wonderful that the federal government on Saturday honoured members of the military who had served in Afghanistan; her husband served two tours in the Arabian Sea.

“But when you look at how fast that celebration was put together and then you look at this, how does that honour and support anybody when you’re taking away their severance package, you’ve left them financially strapped, you continue to garnishee them … it’s heartbreaking, it’s debilitating.”
http://m.thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/1207258-clawbacks-leave-two-nova-scotia-navy-families-high-and-dry
 
Chances are, when this guy arrived in Halifax, during in-clearances he was handed a bunch of forms to fill out and sign, which he did.  Problem being, nobody took the time to verify that the location he was living in, was within the geographical boundaries of the Base.

This problem is more common that some people think and there are probably alot more out there who are currently receiving PLD and not entitled to it.  My curiousity in all of this would be two fold, (1) why did this take 13 years to discover;  and (2) what transpired that caused someone, somewhere to take a closer look at this specific instance?

I'm sure at the end of the day, they just quoted QR&O 203.04, which is pretty much a "catch all" when it comes to recovering any type of overpayment.
 
My situation is somewhat the opposite but just as frustrating.  When I got posted into Halifax (funny how it's the same base as this issue) I was handed a mitt full of forms and completed them all, including the PLD.  About 6 months later (I had been away on course for much of that time) I noted I still was not getting PLD and went in to get the situation addressed.  After another couple of months, and another set of paperwork, they started it but they refused to go back and catch up what I was behind.  I didn't cause the issue in the first place but it took me the better part of 2 years to get the 7 months of missing PLD payments caught up.  The individual RMS clerks I was dealing with were great but they just kept getting stonewalled by higher until I took it higher then that.  I got to the point I almost regretted bring it up in the first place and even applying for PLD.  I can well imagine how frustrated these two members are
 
In a related note, did they not just say in the MATA/PATA debacle that they can't recover anything after 6 years as per CA legislation?  How are they able to go back 13 years?

 
Was wondering about that.  Legislation restricts them to 7 years so why are they taking 13?  Then again has he raised this point as I would guess he was one of the mbrs caught up in the Sea Allowance audits and should be aware of this.


"The Rissescos live in Vaughan, just outside Windsor. They were told their home is on the wrong side of Highway 14, though that is not written in any policy or description"

Funny though that when I look up the boundaries I find this http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgcb/dcba/travel/engraph/halifax_e.asp?sidesection=2&sidecat=8:

Description:
■Starting and including Tangier;
■Thence in a straight line north west to Middle Musquodoboit;
■Thence in a straight line north west to Stewiacke (southern shore of the Stewiacke river);
■Thence in a straight line north west to Kennetcook;
■Thence in a straight line south west to Windsor (eastern shore of the Avon River);
Thence south west along Hwy 14 to Chester (including eastern side only of Hwy 14 between Windsor and Vaughan, then both sides of Hwy 14 to Chester) ;
■Thence proceed east along the coastline to Tangier.

and MARLANTORD 6-3 which says the same thing http://halifax.mil.ca/N02/FES/EAC/library/6-3_e.doc.

Guess it is written somewhere after all.

 
However, when was the policy issued?  When were the boundaries defined?  There are many questions that need to be asked and assessed.
 
dapaterson said:
However, when was the policy issued?  When were the boundaries defined?  There are many questions that need to be asked and assessed.

I agree.  Grandfathering just might come into play and may have never even been a consideration.  In some circumstances, where the Geographical Boundaries were reasonbly defined and then subsequently changed, it normally doesn't impact on those who then find themselves "outside" of the NEW geographical boundaries.

Without knowing the full circumstances, everything is mere speculation.
 
I find it interesting that the problem is occurring on a clearly definable and easily recognizable part of the boundary, whereas the rest of the boundary is set by straight lines running from municipality to municipality. With the straight line sections the start and end points are ambiguous as to where they are located in the municipality. And across the distances we are dealing with you could easily be out an amount significant enough to put one's home inside or outside the line.

And what happens when the line passes through the property. If the driveway and street are on the wrong side of the line do you not get the benefit, even though the front door is on the right side of the line?
 
I find situations like this incredibly frustrating; I can see ceasing something like PLD if they do a review and find something like this, but recovering overpayments that were previously approved by a SME seems unnecessarily punitive, regardless of the FAA requirements.

I'm trying to imagine what would happen if a private company tried this, and nothing but a lawsuit springs to mind.

In a bedroom lawyer note, found that the Canada Labour code allows for employers to deduct overpayment of wages (not benefits)
from an employees pay (here) .  But as they always tell you that PLD is an entitlement and not to rely on it as part of your pay, and it's classified as an allowance and found under 'benefits' on the CBI page (here), are they actually allowed to recover overpayments of benefits from your pay?  Or does the pretty generic para in the FAA overule that?  Seems like dirty pool that they seem to hold private companies to a higher standard, as it seems like employees have to agree to paying back overpayment of benefits.

This stuff happens far too often as well, and at no point does the pay/benefits system take any responsibility when they make a mistake.

I remember years ago a DEO was posted from St. Jean to Halifax under a normal IRP posting as per the message the mangler cut (which incidentally was also the standard for RMC/ROTP graduates at the time).  Some colonel decided after the fact that he wasn't entitled to it as he wasn't trade qualified, and this guy got hit with a bill for over $50k after being in uniform for about six months and following the orders he got.  I think it eventually got quashed after some pretty high level intervention, and he quit shortly thereafter.  It was pretty stupid.  They also at no point made any attempt to recover anthing from the RMC graduates, who were no further ahead in their trades training, so there was a double standard on top of it.

{/end rant}  Just saying things like this don't exactly help retention... :2c:
 
Navy_Pete said:
I find situations like this incredibly frustrating; I can see ceasing something like PLD if they do a review and find something like this, but recovering overpayments that were previously approved by a SME seems unnecessarily punitive, regardless of the FAA requirements.

I'm trying to imagine what would happen if a private company tried this, and nothing but a lawsuit springs to mind.

In a bedroom lawyer note, found that the Canada Labour code allows for employers to deduct overpayment of wages (not benefits)
from an employees pay (here) .  But as they always tell you that PLD is an entitlement and not to rely on it as part of your pay, and it's classified as an allowance and found under 'benefits' on the CBI page (here), are they actually allowed to recover overpayments of benefits from your pay?  Or does the pretty generic para in the FAA overule that?  Seems like dirty pool that they seem to hold private companies to a higher standard, as it seems like employees have to agree to paying back overpayment of benefits.

This stuff happens far too often as well, and at no point does the pay/benefits system take any responsibility when they make a mistake.

I remember years ago a DEO was posted from St. Jean to Halifax under a normal IRP posting as per the message the mangler cut (which incidentally was also the standard for RMC/ROTP graduates at the time).  Some colonel decided after the fact that he wasn't entitled to it as he wasn't trade qualified, and this guy got hit with a bill for over $50k after being in uniform for about six months and following the orders he got.  I think it eventually got quashed after some pretty high level intervention, and he quit shortly thereafter.  It was pretty stupid.  They also at no point made any attempt to recover anthing from the RMC graduates, who were no further ahead in their trades training, so there was a double standard on top of it.

{/end rant}  Just saying things like this don't exactly help retention... :2c:

The FAA doesn't really come into play in cases such as this and you really can't compare private sector to public sector, it's night and day, apples and oranges.

Depending on the circumstance and how an individual was remunerated (ie; was it through a claim or by regular payroll), determines the means of recovery.  So if you were paid a benefit through your Pay Account that you were not entitled to, it is recovered through your Pay Account and generally, at the same rate in which it was paid out.  If it's a claim, reimbursement is normally by cheque but if a CF member refuses to reimburse, then it will just come out of their pay.

So the process, looks pretty much like this...........

Pte/Cpl Jones tells you that you are entitled to X and gives you the paperwork to fill out.  You do that and sign.  Pte/Cpl Jones inputs that info into the Pay System for approval.  It then get's passed to MCpl/Sgt Smith who reviews it, signs off and "presses" the approval button.  Voila, you are now in receipt of a benefit/allowance.  Simple as that!!!

There is no liability on the part of your Admin Staff, QR&O 203.04 summed up (every Offr and NCM will acquaint themselves with their rates of pay and allowances,,,,,,,etc etc).  Which pushes the onus back on YOU.

I hear what you are saying and have heard it many many times before.  Drives me up the wall........when I used to see something like this.

 
FAA should come into play.  Clerks, every month, certified that things were kosher.  When, it is alleged, they were not.

So why are we not holding the clerks from 2001 accountable for not doing their job properly?
 
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