AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Yeah, the tugs are saber toothed as well.

How can you say that ??? They were new, modern and recent acquisitions when I joined ... in 1975.  ;D

And I agree that acquisition of two Asterix would make it possible to delay the Queenston and as a result, get on with building the Diefenbaker first (wonder if the Libs will change that name?)

As for the way we operate our AOR's, they form an integral part of the deployed Task Group from an operational point of view, so they carry out ops, are part of the surface/air picture and provide some of the coordination required, since they are in the box with the other warships anyway. If you move to a civilian model (and I have no problem with that model), then the AOR does not form part of the TG anymore and is left out, requiring a supplementary military asset in the deployed force to meet the coverage needs. This means three more such assets to keep one deployed at all times.

 

[Cloud Cover]

The UK utilizes the RFA fleet as much more than just a tanker fleet "out of the box":

"On 14 May 2012, during its 2012 deployment, U.S. helicopter squadron HSM-77 Detachment Five completed its temporary operational rotation on board the Fort Victoria which was serving as the flagship for Combined Task Force 151. This was the first time that a MH-60R helicopter had ever operated from a Royal Navy ship. The detachment's helicopters primarily concentrated on anti-piracy surveillance missions during this two-week period.[18]

For her four-month-long 2013 deployment, Fort Victoria relieved Wave Ruler and operated with Task Force 53 in the Indian Ocean and Persian Gulf.[19] In September 2013 she took over as flagship of Combined Task Force 151 tackling piracy off Somalia.[20] In mid 2013, she sailed with the COUGAR 13 task group.[21]"

However, I believe they are doing this because the RN is so short of surface combatant ships to the point where they must take such risks.

Also, RFA ships have Marines to man weapon systems and RN sailors to operate sensors, communications, aircraft handling etc.

 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

An article on the importance of refueling capability

http://cimsec.org/canadas-naval-fuel-crisis/19073

 

[GK .Dundas]

An article on the importance of refueling capability

http://cimsec.org/canadas-naval-fuel-crisis/19073

OUCH!

 

[jollyjacktar]

I'm surprised he didn't bring up HMS PENELOPE getting run over by PRE.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Penelope_(F127)

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

If anyone is interested, here is the video of the PENELOPE collision (a little more than getting hung up on PRESERVER's anchor. She almost got rolled over):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2vW7B5JLmY

For those of you unfamiliar with these type of things:

PENELOPE is the ship that is on the right side of PRE at the start. She and PRE are steamships, so the black smoke you see coming from their smokestacks at different times indicates that the engine rooms have just got and are executing "full speed" orders.

PENELOPE goes full speed first. But in her case, it was because, as she made her approach to refuel, the engine telegraph on the Starboard engine got stuck  at "full ahead". The engine room obliges, but before that can be noticed, the counter  order be passed and new way of communicating engine orders established*, it is too late: she has lurched ahead and been pushed to port. At that point, it is too late and her best chance is to put speed on again to cross in front of the AOR as fast as possible.

On the left side, you can see a textbook emergency breakaway, where the gear is quickly returned to PRE while the refuelled ship eases herself quickly out to open the distance, and executes a hard turn to port as soon as the last connection is broken.

At that point, PRE is free to maneuver and full speed astern is ordered (hence the black smoke) and turn hard to port to minimize the blow.

PENELOPE was lucky enough to have had this happen to her while fueling from a Canadian AOR. The British and American supply ships of that era (and today's too, including all the new ones Canada is about to get - Berlins and Asterix) had bulbous bows to help with speed and fuel consumption. PRE did not, and otherwise, PENELOPE would have been sunk.

*: For educational purposes here: for frigates of that era, like the LEANDERs and ST-LAURENT's, there are no engine controls or status indicators on the bridge of the ship. All engines are controlled manually by the engine room. Orders go from the bridge to the wheelhouse (located below decks in the centre of the ship - again not on the bridge) by microphone (or voice pipe when no power available), where they are then transmitted to the ER by way of  mechanical telegraphs (one at each end - connected by chains and wires traveling in tubes. The Engine rooms themselves have a second set of telegraphs to order the then required steam settings from the boiler room. when the engine room "repeated" an order received from the wheelhouse, it meant "got what you want, I am getting on with doing it now", not "order has been executed". So it could take quite a few precious seconds before anyone realizes that an engine order is not being executed or is being executed improperly.

 

[jollyjacktar]

During a RAS things can escalate quickly and become exciting.  OGBD  gives a nice play by play on how a good emergency breakaway is done.  On the video you hear 6 blasts of the horn from the ship on the port side announcing she is committing this manoeuvre.  When done well as this video shows, it's swift, slick and a pleasure to watch especially with something like an Arleigh Burke flooring the gas and screaming off like a raped ape.

When done badly...  I was on PRE doing workup assists for IRQ.  She was in the same position on port as the video.  I was in the fuel dump of station 2 and passing down the fuel orders to the after liquid control office where they would start and stop pumping the fuel across as needed.  IRQ gave their warnings they were full and to stop pumping.  All normal.  Frequently the warships practice emergency breakaways and tear away as soon as all the fuel hoses are disconnected and wires released.

This time however the officer of the watch signalled his intention to do a emergency breakaway, honk honk, then he peeled off with the main engines engaged and everything still connected.  It was like the biggest game of deep sea fishing with jaws on the line.  The guys controlling the span wires were desperately playing out the the hose and wire while the guys across on IRQ tried to disconnect it all before it snapped off and shot back toward PRE.

On the IRQ foscle the folks who were manning the distance line (a long rope marked with pennants every 5 meters so the OOW can gauge the distance between ships) were paying it back to PRE's team as fast as possible when one of the girls were snagged by the line and nearly dragged between ships.  She was only saved by getting slammed around a stancion and pulled to safety by a team member.

Meanwhile, midships we could see the gear wouldn't be disconnected but torn off.  The fuel nozzle was ripped out of the Bell housing on IRQ and went flopping over the side as the RAS deck crew tried to bring it back.  The span wire was singing and at this point I along with everyone else outside ran for cover.  The weak link finally snapped and the wire shot back toward PRE stacking against the side of the ship and into the water.  Thankfully no one was seriously injured and our gear didn't get caught up underneath.

All of this took place in a span of about 3-4 minutes.  I counted about 18 sea training staff watching the RAS,  I can just imagine the blast of shit the OOW received afterwards.

 

[NavyShooter]

Geez.....

I was SSD helmsman for 9 years on CHA, STJ and MON...never had that kind of mess up.

 

[jollyjacktar]

It just wasn't their day.  Later on, about midnight ST decided to have a small simulated fire in the Tech Office.  They set off a smoke candle which started some papers on fire instead...  ;D

 

[Occam]

Geez.....

I was SSD helmsman for 9 years on CHA, STJ and MON...never had that kind of mess up.

That's the beauty of having your throttle controls directly linked to the propulsion and CRPP systems.  On post #21 of the thread at http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=41364, a stoker describes the actions going on in the engine/boiler room when all this stuff is going on.  Sounds like an incredible amount of activity, with lots of opportunity for errors to be made in a lot of places.

All of this took place in a span of about 3-4 minutes.  I counted about 18 sea training staff watching the RAS,  I can just imagine the blast of crap the OOW received afterwards.

Maybe someone with more time on the bridge than I (as a CSE type) can enlighten me:

My understanding is that the XO or CO is always on the bridge during a RAS, even if they're not actually driving.  If an OOW made such a critical error as to put on full helm for an emergency breakaway (as opposed to a more gentle course manoeuver to allow a quick but orderly RAS gear retrieval and span wire slip), would the XO or CO not immediately direct the OOD to fix their error, or do a quick "I have the ship" and start making the necessary helm and throttle corrections? 

I guess put another way, at what point does a CO or XO say to him or herself "this is going seriously wrong and I now have to take over"?

 

[Furniture]

As the guy standing in front of the CO on the wing for a RAS I can asure you that they are present, and aware of what is happening. If the communication betwen the dump and the bridge is poor things might go a bit sideways, but the tanker CO is on a direct line with the CO of the ship refueling so you would think issues like that wouldn't come up.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Things can and do go sideways even with the Old Man in the house.  When PRE hit the Nova Dock a few years ago, I am told the OM froze when the youngster OOW got in over his head.  The tankers don't respond to the helm all snappy like a warship and their inertia also make their response time slow down too.  Both of these men were new-ish to the ship and not used to her ways.  It was the XO jumping in and taking over the situation that softened the collision somewhat.

Both OMs should be on the Bridge Wings for a RAS and I'm sure there was plenty of hooting and hollering when the breakaway went south, especially on IRQ.  Probably didn't help matters with the poor bastards on the helm,  as OOW etc.  I know I eventually threw my headset off and ran for my life as did others.

 

[NavyShooter]

Having the helmsman position on the bridge is a good thing....having a well trained and situationally aware helmsman on the bridge is a very good thing.  Having a Helmsman who asks the OOW to "SAY AGAIN SIR" when he gets a port vs starboard helm order (which happened just a handful of times to me) to which I got the same order....and repeated the "SAY AGAIN SIR" at which point the CO broke in with the correct helm order, then passed control back to the OOW.  We were not alongside a tanker for a RAS, but if I recall we were doing OOW maneuvers with SNFL many moons ago.  I think that was on CHA.

CO was always on the bridge.  ALWAYS.  During a RAS or other events on the bridge like this.

NS

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Fully agree with NavyShooter here. 

I am sure the CO here did not intervene right away to see if the OOW got the hint. As he/she didn't, the CO got involved, and probably had a little chat with the OOW later to explain to him how polite and proper helmsmen bring what they believe to be maneuvering errors to the OOW's attention.

When I observed that type of behaviour by a helmsman, I always sent the Deck Officer a little positive note on the event for inclusion in the seaman's divisional file and PER.

 

[NavyShooter]

All I got was a dirty look from the OOW afterwards....guess the CO had some good words with him after ;-)

That said, when they changed my spot on the W&SB and put someone else on the helm, the CO had him kicked off after about 20 minutes and me back up from the AX....price of being good at something? 

 

[Half Full]

  I counted about 18 sea training staff watching the RAS,  I can just imagine the blast of shit the OOW received afterwards.

This seems very similar to a situation that occurred when I was the NAVO on PRE...again with IRO.  If the CO had the Con than the OOW should have known better and questioned the CO's orders...however I can assure you that the ultimate responsibility for that poor shiphandling event lays with the CO...and only the CO.  CST would have had a long closed door session with the CO of IRO on that one. 

 

[jollyjacktar]

CBC Radio is reporting that the Liberals may not approve the Davies Asterix AOR and the plan may die quickly.  So much for supporting the navy.  Just like old times....

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Here is the link to the story on the CBC website:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/davie-supply-ship-liberals-halt-1.3327039

If true, the melding of Irving Shipyard is bad news, especially as it relates to ships that are not even supposed to be assigned to its yard, for one thing, and if Irving offered something similar to the government, I just can't see how they could have done it without delaying work on the other ships they are supposed to build.

 

[Lumber]

It's that decision that the Irving team complained about in its letter...

F*** YOU IRVING, F*** YOU IRVING, F*** YOU IRVING!!!

It's because of Bull S*** like this that we need the Asterix program in the first place!

The Davie deal is, indeed, a sole-source arrangement as Irving complained. But cabinet was told Thursday the deal had won an exemption to the government's contracting regulations...

That exception is due to the fact that the Canadian Armed Forces have lost a significant naval capability which has a direct impact on our ability to operate!

I can't believe how angry I actually am after reading this article (can you tell?). I wish I could blow this up all over social media. To me Irving is acting like a spoiled, whinny little child who didn't get their way, but instead of a few toys or food thrown around the house, they're putting RCN operational capability and sailors lives in jeopardy god damnit!!  ullhair:

 

[jmt18325]

It's interesting to note that people in the NSPS office were never in favour of this.  I support it (our current situation in terms of destroyers and aupply ships is embarrassing) but, it seems the government ignored other options, at least one of which was lower prices for political expediency.  It also seems to me that the Conservatives set up a process that even the Liberals agree is good.  Perhaps we should remain committed to that process?  It will mean we don't have what we need for longer, but, if the money is transferred into the new ships instead, it may end up better...eventually.