AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Baz]

Baz,

The trials were not "extensive". It was not a full SHOL. It was just enough to be able to get them a SWOAD capability.

It in no way certified the ship to operate an embarked CH148 Det.

Please tell me it is a restricted SWOAD.

Even a SWOAD SHOL takes time to open up the pitch, roll, and wind envelopes...

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Please understand that I wasn't part of the trials, but my understanding is that it was just enough so that they can operate SWOAD with a foreign helo, should the need arise.

They did not have time to develop a full envelope. Without looking, I would imagine they have just been given the standard HOSTAC 2/4 limit and the templated wind envelope.

 

[Kirkhill]

Kind of interesting reading the last couple of comments.

On the one hand the Asterix has been cleared to a certain standard, one that permits operations to commence under certain conditions immediately. There are conditions under which those same operations may not be allowed (sea state?  wind speed? lighting?). 

On the other hand it is not yet known what Asterix's full range of capabilities are: her operating envelope. 

But

She can do some stuff immediately.

She can work to demonstrate her full range of capabilities over time.

She can be modified if and as necessary.

That is a fairly typical commercial model.

The Government model is, to say the least, considerably more constrained.  And longer.  And more expensive.  And more uncertain.

 

[Baz]

The Government model is, to say the least, considerably more constrained.  And longer.  And more expensive.  And more uncertain.

That is probably true... however, without knowing the answer, may it be that when the full envelope of a NATO warship is opened up then they are flying in conditions that the commercial model would not allow?

Although I think the term *extensive* as used was probably misleading to some extent, SKT rightfully pointed out to me that they could have obtained a relatively benign envelope without the trials of, say, the CH148 on the frigates.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I think at this time, there is no intent of deploying an Airdet with the Asterix (would there even be enough available?). She is being cleared to operate in fleet supply operations only (like RFA and MSC ships in the US and UK are) - not as a participating warship in a task force as we used to employ our AORs.

Thus, to get her there, there was no point in getting a fully certified deck for an Airdet operation, but only to demonstrate the limited capability, if required, to receive one of the frigates helicopter for either personnel or equipment transfers or to make some cargo VERTREP.

If, at a later time, it is decided to put an Airdet onboard, I am sure the full SHOL will be carried out before hand.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Would she not be the preferred platform to carry deeper repairs/maintenance on the Cyclones away from Canada?

 

[jollyjacktar]

No, a JSS would be.

 

[Czech_pivo]

No, a JSS would be.

So, are we willing to wait 8-10yrs for that to occur?
Sad if we are.

 

[jollyjacktar]

It will take as long as it takes.  Nothing we can do about it.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

No, a JSS would be.

I am going to take a WAG and give you a scenario where you get to do some deep maintenance or swap on one of your helicopters somewhere off the coast of Africa, your choices are a Halifax or the Asterix, I am going to guess that the Asterix would have more hanger space to do so. 

 

[jollyjacktar]

It's not so much the space.  You need to have the personnel, shops, gear and parts.  Right now, Asterix has none of that and Halifax is better equipped. 

And it doesn't change my answer that the JSS is the better choice over Asterix.

 

[Kirkhill]

What happens if the Civilian ISS provider (Sikorsky) and the Civilian Ship Charterer (Federal Fleet Services) agree that Asterix is sufficient for the needs of Sikorsky to provide a Forward ISS Base?

What is the RCN/RCAF's involvement?

CANADIAN COMPANIES SUPPLY ISS FOR CYCLONE

Cyclone’s In-Service Support (ISS) contract is a 25-year, $4.2 billion contract primed by Sikorsky, who formed a team which includes key partnerships with Canadian companies: General Dynamics Mission Systems - Canada (Ottawa, Ontario) providing Mission System life cycle support and training services; L-3 MAS (Montreal, Quebec) providing the support services information environment and warehouse management and Bluedrop Performance Learning delivering courseware and instructors.

“The ISS framework is a full service package which runs to approximately 2038. It's a performance-based construct where the contractor is responsible for virtually the entire spectrum of in-service support ranging from spare parts, supply chain management, engineering support across the breadth and depth of the program - not just to the helicopter itself, but support also to the schoolhouse, for example,” said DND’s Baker.

The ISS infrastructure and the Maritime Helicopter Training Centre (MHTC) is now in place at 12 Wing Shearwater.  Built by Sikorsky, the state-of-the-art MHTC, which was formally dedicated on 8 June as the “Fumerton and Bing Training Centre” has already trained over 300 students, including pilots, SENSOs, TACCOs, and maintainers.  Such is the capability of the schoolhouse, that the full-motion flight simulator can be linked to the mission system simulator so the entire crew can train together.

http://www.canadiandefencereview.com/Featured_content?blog/78

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

What happens if the Civilian ISS provider (Sikorsky) and the Civilian Ship Charterer (Federal Fleet Services) agree that Asterix is sufficient for the needs of Sikorsky to provide a Forward ISS Base?

What is the RCN/RCAF's involvement?

http://www.canadiandefencereview.com/Featured_content?blog/78

Seaspan does not approve of this message.....  :tsktsk:

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I suggest you go back and watch the episode 3 of "Canada's next AOR", the Davie videos on building the Asterix. It's the episode with the ship's visit with Fraser Spencer, of FFS. You will see that , while the parts and tools are not there, the various shops and compartments required for an Airdet, including the pilot's ready room and the the briefing/mission planning room, are already built in the Asterix. It's just a matter for the RCAF/RCN to decide to put the Airdet on board that is required.

However, the main impediment at this stage (unless our friends in the MH world tell me otherwise) is the fact that the Sea kings are being phased out on the east Coast, while the Cyclones are only ramping up. The shortage of fully trained and ready pilots, operators and technician resulting from the early stage of this process means that there is a smaller number of Airdets available than would otherwise be needed for the needs of the fleet and Asterix at the same time. Fleet comes first - that's all.

Or am I wrong?

 

[jollyjacktar]

Asterix may have the space but until they're kitted, fitted and manned, they're just empty compartments.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Well, yes and no, Jjt. I agree that until they have the tools and the parts, they are not operational spaces, but the compartments are specifically designed for the Airdet's purposes, they have built in furniture such as workbenches and tables, briefing room equipment and the lot. You were intimating in previous post that the Asterix didn't have any of those compartments at all.

That's all I was pointing out: While I agree you need all the tools, pubs and parts, every necessary space to accommodate is already there and pre-fitted with all the "built-ins" necessary for the task.

It does not follow that the RCN/RCAF wishes to put a detachment in there, nor even has one that could go in, but if they wished, it can be done. 

 

[jollyjacktar]

Yes, you're quite correct.  I was mistaken re: the facilities available. 

2nd and 3rd line capabilities were stripped from PRE years before she was paid off, at around the time of refit in 03/4.  IIRC, it was more of a manning issue in that they couldn't keep it up.

If everything is going ISSC, who knows what will be happening with the new birds.  I don't believe Asterix has cranes fitted aft to move broken birds as PRE/PRO did.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Asterix does not have such cranes, and neither does the Berlin class AOR that will become JSS's.

However, while the PRE/PRO class had cranes back aft that could be used to ship/unship damaged helicopters (and even if it became the main use for those cranes  :nod, that was not the original intent. Those cranes where there to raise and lower the LCVP's (landing crafts, for landlubbers). Being able to use them for helo ship/unship ops was just an unforeseen bonus.  ;D

 

[jollyjacktar]

Yes.  Have participated in both evolutions, around the same time.

 

[Underway]

OGBD and others, I know this is a huge question and is probably deserving of its own thread but , realistically speaking, how big or well funded should the navy be for a country of Canada's size?  How many ships? What kind of ships? Should we have a particular focus?

...snip...

Excuse me if those basic questions have been dealt with recently, but I don't seem to have seen much mention of what the navy SHOULD HAVE or what the navy SHOULD BE as opposed to what the politicians SHOULD NOT be doing.

There are a few threads where we delve into this.  Problem is the threads on this are generally started with a different topic in mind and the conversation evolves from there.  Generally the consensus revolves around the following (which coincidentally is what the navy is requesting from the gov't in many cases):

2-4 AOR (Navy wants 3, gov't wants 2, we'll get 2+1)
3-4 AAW Command and Control Ships for Task Group command and defence.
12 General purpose Frigates
4-6 Submarines
12 Minesweepers
6-8 Arctic Patrol Ships

Of course there is plenty of room for argument/discussion here.  Do we really need AOPS as is?  Perhaps more AAW destroyers are needed.  Submarine numbers are contentious.  All with the background discussion that the RCN is short of people by about 700 right now.  There is of course the ongoing discussion about LPD type ships as well.  And then there is a capability discussion on what does a GP frigate really need to do, how big and what type of equipment etc...