AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[jollyjacktar]

Honest question, can you RAS an SSK?

No, you need to have something for the span wire to hook onto and tension down prior to sending the fueling hose across (a sub wouldn't take kindly being tensioned down like that).  Then when you get the fueling hose across the probe needs to fit into the bell housing before you can start pumping.  Fuel spills can and do happen when RASing, you wouldn't be able to safeguard against spills getting over the casing and into the water.  Lastly, the pumping rate would, I expect, be difficult to manage as well between the AOR and sub. 

Even alongside Halifax, they never came over for a fueling from us.  I expect they use the fueling barge to accomplish it at home.

 

[Good2Golf]

No, you need to have something for the span wire to hook onto and tension down prior to sending the fueling hose across (a sub wouldn't take kindly being tensioned down like that).  Then when you get the fueling hose across the probe needs to fit into the bell housing before you can start pumping.  Fuel spills can and do happen when RASing, you wouldn't be able to safeguard against spills getting over the casing and into the water.  Lastly, the pumping rate would, I expect, be difficult to manage as well between the AOR and sub. 

Even alongside Halifax, they never came over for a fueling from us.  I expect they use the fueling barge to accomplish it at home.

Thanks! 

 

[Kirkhill]

It lets (grey, green and black) skid-equipped helicopters to land on, "I would think."  :nod:

Thanks for the "hypothetical" response.

 

[Good2Golf]

Thanks for the "hypothetical" response.

Caveat emptor:  I didn't "think" much about the grey part of the response so YMMV...by up to 33.333333%.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

No bear trap. you would see the tracks and trap on the flight deck, and none is there to be seen.

On the other hand, with the size of the vessel and resulting stability it's no big deal. It's been very long, so people with more recent experience can chime in, but I don't remember the PRO having the bear trap system either. If I am wrong, someone let me know.

The "cargo net" installation is pretty standard set up for  merchant ships and oil platforms that operate helicopters. I believe the idea is to both help prevent sideways slippage and provide a base to "hook on" to after landing to help secure the helicopter.

As for RAS for submarines: No there is no RASing submarines in the classic sense of two ships paralleling while underway with gear passed between them. First of all, with the submarines (VIC class) having a range of 8,000 NM and stores room for three months if need be while rarely operating at speed, there is remarkably little requirement for resupply at sea of submarines. If need be, in calm weather, you could always bring a submarine alongside the AOR and manually re-fuel. It was done by the Germans with the "milchcows" during WWII, and both vessels were a lot smaller than current submarines. On the other hand, a destroyer or frigate involved in near constant high speed work (such as escorting) can suck up half her fuel or more in 48-72 hours  :nod: . 

 

[YZT580]

Thanks.  Yet even a ship the size of the Asterix is going to pitch and roll significantly in high seas.  For all it costs, I would have thought the extra insurance that a bear trap would bring would make it a worthwhile addition.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Perhaps that's the very reason, YZT. Since Asterix belongs to and is the responsibility of a civilian outfit (FFS), they prefer to avoid the higher risks and liabilities of operating helicopters in high sea states (even with a trap system) and therefore chose a system with lower limits on purpose.

That's just one possibility. I don't know for sure.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

There is no AOR in the world that I am aware of that has a Hauldown system.

You can usually find a flying course that puts the deck in pitch and roll limits.

If not, it is usually too rough to be very good idea to go flying, in the first place.

 

[Kirkhill]

Caveat emptor:  I didn't "think" much about the grey part of the response so YMMV...by up to 33.333333%.

Perhaps you could have swapped "red" for "grey"?

And thanks to you as well OGBD.  I didn't know it was standard practice in the civvy market.

 

[Kirkhill]

There is no AOR in the world that I am aware of that has a Hauldown system.

You can usually find a flying course that puts the deck in pitch and roll limits.

If not, it is usually too rough to be very good idea to go flying, in the first place.

Och, what the devil would you know about landing helicopters on ships?  ;D

 

[NavyShooter]

Interesting that they seem to have put the "H" on the flight deck sideways instead of fore/aft, and they seem to have put the dimensions on the flight deck as well.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Again here, NavyShooter, having the "H" athwartship and measurements of the flight deck marked on deck is pretty standard merchant ship practices. See examples below - though the numbers don't show up well, but I have seen enough of them to know they are there  :nod:.

Main reason is that, normally for merchies, they are pretty well stopped when a helicopter uses the deck (it is normally for - mostly -oil field/exploration industry working ships that have crew rotations).

So the most usual approach is from the side, and the numbers is because, unlike us that operate standardized size helicopters (pretty well all the same size/set up), for merchant ships, they never quite know what size of helicopter will deliver the parts/people. So it's up to the helicopter pilot to figure how he/she wants to approach by knowing how much room is available and in which direction, where the landing pad is concerned (and many of those helicopter pilots may not have the experience to "estimate" size of a ship's deck just by looking at it).

 

[rotrhed]

CAP 437 from the UK Civil Aviation Authority may provide some insight into merchant vessel flight decks and markings.

https://www.helidecks.net/app/download/1478859/cap437+Offshore+Helicopter+Landing+Areas+-+Guidance.pdf

Chapter 3 goes into physical characteristics, with 3.8 discussing the surface.  3.8.3 describes the netting, laid for wheeled helicopters.

Chapter 4 discusses visual aids, including the rationale behind the deck markings and orientation.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Thanks for that, Bigzoomie. Very useful document, which confirms what I said: All of those things (netting, "sideways" H and size markings) are standard practices in merchant ships.

Any more questions, Chris and NavyShooter?  ;D

 

[JLB50]

OGBD and others, I know this is a huge question and is probably deserving of its own thread but , realistically speaking, how big or well funded should the navy be for a country of Canada's size?  How many ships? What kind of ships? Should we have a particular focus?

I only come here occasionally as, not a navy man, but as someone whose dad died while in the navy many years ago, and I guess his love for the sea continues with me. Anyway, like most here, I hate to see the public and the politicians continually seem to lack a true appreciation of what Canada should be doing for its armed forces.

Excuse me if those basic questions have been dealt with recently, but I don't seem to have seen much mention of what the navy SHOULD HAVE or what the navy SHOULD BE as opposed to what the politicians SHOULD NOT be doing.

 

[YZT580]

JLB, look at Australia's navy.  That should be the minimum for a standard plus add in several top tier icebreakers for the coast guard in order for us to access our third ocean.  And we should be looking at nuclear subs to be able to seal off the north if necessary.

 

[Kirkhill]

Thanks for that, Bigzoomie. Very useful document, which confirms what I said: All of those things (netting, "sideways" H and size markings) are standard practices in merchant ships.

Any more questions, Chris and NavyShooter?  ;D

How do you spell smartarse?

 

[Uzlu]

With Project Resolve ship accepted, Davie pins hopes on icebreakers

After intensive at-sea trials and testing, Canada's Department of Defence has formally accepted Asterix, the Resolve-Class Naval Support Ship created by Davie Shipbuilding by converting an existing containership.

The ship is leased to the Canadian Government through Davie's sister company Federal Fleet Services and has now entered full operational service with the Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) and Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF).

During the Royal Canadian Navy trials, as planned, Asterix performed daily replenishment-at-sea (RAS) exercises with the RCN and conducted extensive RCAF CH-148 Cyclone helicopter operations to prove and demonstrate its capabilities. The exercises have included everything from dual RAS operations to helicopter landing, take-off and vertical replenishment trials.

Spencer Fraser, CEO of Federal Fleet Services commented "To deliver the first Canadian naval ship in over twenty years, the first supply ship in almost 50 years, and to reach FOC [Full Operating Capability] so efficiently and in such a short period of time is a testament to the hard work, dedication and dynamism of the teams at Davie and FFS. We are all very proud of our achievement and appreciative of the professional support we have received from DND and PSPC."

Fraser added, "We promised the government that we would fill a strategic gap in an expedited manner, that we would save the Canadian taxpayer money with our solution, and most importantly, that we would provide the men and women of the RCN and RCAF with a world-class capability they could be proud of. Today marks that achievement and we stand ready to assist the Government of Canada to do more."

http://www.marinelog.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=28230:with-project-resolve-oiler-in-service&Itemid=223

 

[Baz]

During the Royal Canadian Navy trials, as planned, Asterix ... conducted extensive RCAF CH-148 Cyclone helicopter operations ... helicopter landing, take-off and vertical replenishment trials.

Although I have no insight into what was done, given the previous discussions on this topic, there is a little voice inside my head that is concerned.  Given that it has only been 4 weeks, what is meant by *extensive*, especially as they weren't dedicated air trials?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Baz,

The trials were not "extensive". It was not a full SHOL. It was just enough to be able to get them a SWOAD capability.

It in no way certified the ship to operate an embarked CH148 Det.