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AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

What would be the number required to have 1 available to sail when asked on each coast?
Normally its a two to one ratio for ships, but in the JSS case you can likely have three or four ships which means two will be available most of the time with only one avail some of the time. Coast really doesn't matter for these ships as far as deployment is concerned. Given a week they can be on either coast or given two weeks all could be in the Pacific or Europe.
 
I think that this is indeed possible. JSS aren't lethal so we can maintain the fiction that we are a peacekeeping nation.
Don't give the public so much credit. They see grey warship they assume WARship. With guns. 99.99% of the population won't be able to tell the difference between a relatively unarmed AOR and a fully armed Frigate. And they of course will call them boats as well. lol

Like you said though, HADR is a strength of these vessels including for Canadian responses along coastlines.
 
By listening to a young Liberal talking head on CBC yesterday on Power and Politics, the Peacekeeping Myth is alive and a spreading like wildfire in Liberal land.
Damn! :(
I will publish my paper I wrote for OPMEs - Peacekeeping - A Fatal Distraction?

Although the CAF as an institution never bought into the myth (some people did) a lot of politicians and the public did. It seems to be making a resurgence and this does not bode well for the CAF.
 
I will publish my paper I wrote for OPMEs - Peacekeeping - A Fatal Distraction?

Although the CAF as an institution never bought into the myth (some people did) a lot of politicians and the public did. It seems to be making a resurgence and this does not bode well for the CAF.
There is NO place on this earth that has an ongoing conflict that I'd used to send our folks. Ukraine would be the only place and it would not be under the UN control.
 
I will publish my paper I wrote for OPMEs - Peacekeeping - A Fatal Distraction?

Although the CAF as an institution never bought into the myth (some people did) a lot of politicians and the public did. It seems to be making a resurgence and this does not bode well for the CAF.
If the CAF/DND/GoC can use that intelligently, "peacekeeping" and DOMOPS covers all sorts of expensive noncombat items as far as selling expenditures to the public.

Trucks, helicopters, deployable medical infrastructure, and who knows what else can benefit from peacekeeping and aid vibes, avoiding the heavy lifting of "we need this to kill people" where there's another more palatable option.

Still need to do that around all sorts of other kit, but if it makes spending billions on things the CAF needs anyways an easier PR project, use it! Educating the public can carry on in tandem.
 
If the CAF/DND/GoC can use that intelligently, "peacekeeping" and DOMOPS covers all sorts of expensive noncombat items as far as selling expenditures to the public.

Trucks, helicopters, deployable medical infrastructure, and who knows what else can benefit from peacekeeping and aid vibes, avoiding the heavy lifting of "we need this to kill people" where there's another more palatable option.

Still need to do that around all sorts of other kit, but if it makes spending billions on things the CAF needs anyways an easier PR project, use it! Educating the public can carry on in tandem.
I'll agree but to a point.

Lots of politicians will state that "Peacekeepers don't need heavy weapons" therefore that is there way "out".

I know that's a bit simplified - but If I remember to find that essay I can spell it out better that way.
 
FOUND IT!!!!

Without the use of crayons too....I em so smrt lol - this was from 2010 or so

The purpose of this essay is to examine the role of peacekeeping within the CF and its contribution to Canadian military professionalism. Was the Canadian Forces (CF) fatally distracted from the primary mission of a military due to peacekeeping commitments? Or was peacekeeping another military mission that the CF was extraordinarily proficient with, that in fact did enhance military professionalism in the CF? It the contention of this paper that peacekeeping was not a fatal distraction but did enhance military professionalism in the CF but that in a sense it did also degrade military thought in some circles. As a by-product of Canadian success in peacekeeping, a “peacekeeping myth” was created that basically said all Canadian soldiers ever did was peacekeeping. [1] This thinking totally ignores the fact that Canadian soldiers were involved in both World Wars, and the Korean War.

This essay will be divided into four sections. Peacekeeping and how it fits in with the current roles and missions as designated by the Government of Canada is the first section. Secondly, the Medak Pocket operation is analyzed to demonstrate that peacekeeping did not affect professionalism at the individual or unit level. Third, the fatal distraction will be discussed. Lastly, the role of public opinion on the missions of the CF is discussed.

PEACEKEEPING

The definition of peacekeeping is “the maintenance of international peace and security by the deployment of military forces in a particular area”[2] or “the maintenance of peace, especially the prevention of further fighting between hostile forces in an area”[3]. This makes the assumption that both sides are willing to sit down and negotiate a ceasefire agreement, and then actually have their troops abide by it.

The purpose of peacekeeping, as envisioned by Lester B. Pearson, was to separate warring factions while the conflicts were small, before the conflict became larger and unmanageable. Mr. Pearson’s ideas came to fruition in 1956 during the Suez Canal crisis. Mr. Pearson was able to persuade the United Nations (UN) to form an international peacekeeping force to supervise the withdrawal of the combatants from the Suez Canal area. [4] This force was the United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF). This was the first large-scale deployment of peacekeepers in United Nations history, and was the model for many after it.

How has CF participation impacted professionalism in the CF? First, it is necessary to examine the Canada First Defence Strategy to ascertain what priorities the Government of Canada has set out for the CF and Department of National Defence (DND). There are three roles - defending Canada, defending North America and contributing to international peace and security.[5] It is clear that of these three roles, peacekeeping contributes to international peace and security. It is also the third on the list of priorities.

Underlying these three roles are six core missions – one of these is “Lead and/or conduct a major international operation for an extended period”. [6] Certainly, peacekeeping would be seen as conducting a major international operation, such as Operation Harmony. Operation Harmony was the large scale deployment of peacekeepers to the Former Republic of Yugoslavia (FRY) in 1992 after the breakup of the FRY. This peacekeeping operation was conducted under Chapter VI of the UN Charter. Operation Harmony, as we shall see, contained elements of peacekeeping and war fighting.

OPERATION HARMONY AND THE MEDAK POCKET

“On December 1, 2002, nine long years after the battle, recognition came in the form of a Commander in-Chief Commendation for the Battle of Medak Pocket”.[7]

On 9 September 1993 the Croatian Forces launched an attack on little known Serbian held area near the town of Medak, Croatia. The loss of life is grievous – old people and animals seem to be the victims of this attack. Into the maelstrom steps the Second Battalion, Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry (PPCLI).

What happened at Medak is a testament to the professionalism of the Canadian Forces during the times of the decade of darkness. While on a United Nations (UN) peacekeeping mission, it was necessary for the United Nations Protection Force (UNPROFOR) to use armed force to separate the combatants and prevent further atrocities. This has not been the norm for many years and many UN missions.

It is the contention of this portion that peacekeeping was not a fatal distraction on the unit, subunit or individual level in this particular case. As the example will show, professionalism at the individual level, be it Regular Force or Reserve, was maintained.

It was the grimmest possible ending to what had been a very successful tour. Everywhere they were sent, the Patricias bore the standard of Canada, showing discipline and resolve, and bolstered a failing UN mission” [8]

In 1992, the United Nations deployed a peacekeeping force, including Canadian soldiers, into the Former Republic of Yugoslavia (FRY). The initial deployment of Canadian Forces came from the brigade posted in Germany, from The Royal Canadian Regiment (RCR) and The Royal 22e Regiment, the “Van Doos”.[9] The next deployment came from Canada, consisting of the Third Battalion, PPCLI and a company from 2 PPCLI.

In March 1993, 2PPCLI deployed to the FRY, initially in the Sector West. This was done only after extensive training in Canada, Fort Ord and Fort Hunter Liggett in California. Due to time constraints, 2PPCLI was not able to exercise as a battalion and even the rifle companies were not properly exercised.[10]

An interesting dynamic of this deployment was the fact that of the total number of troops deployed, only 375 were members posted on strength of 2PPCLI. Of the remainder, 165 were attached from other Regular Force units, and 385 were Reserve soldiers.[11] Despite this, after a few months of training, it was virtually impossible to tell the difference between the Regular Force and Reserve Force soldiers, other than their headdress.

On 9 September 1993, the Croatian Army launched an attack into the Medak Pocket. Of particular note, 9 Platoon was commanded by a Reserve Officer, Lieutenant Tyrone Green. While under fire, and during lulls in shelling, the platoon fortified their positions, reported cease fire violations and gathered information on the developing battle. [12]

After the Croatian forces withdrew, soldiers from 2 PPCLI swept the area. “Their job was now, along with civilian police officers and UN medical officers, to sweep the area for signs of ethnic cleansing. The task was enormous”.[13] It was not within the detailed terms of reference for the infantryman of 1993 or a peacekeeping mission to engage in crime scene investigation. The fact that the unit undertook this task is a testament to the professionalism of 2 PPCLI as a unit and as individuals within that unit.

Despite the fact that 2 PPCLI was comprised of a mix of Regular and Reserve Force and that there was insufficient time to complete training as a unit, it is very apparent that the “peacekeeping” mission initially assigned clearly did nothing to lessen the professionalism of the individual soldier or the unit as a whole.

FATAL DISTRACTION

The fatal distraction lays not with the CF. The fatal distraction lies with the Government of Canada, the media and in some part, the Canadian public. Peacekeeping and some of the effects it had on the Government of Canada and the Canadian public have contributed to a “fatal distraction” on the strategic, operational levels and to some extent unit levels.

As far back as 1961 the Canadian Army had the view that UN operations were not high on the priority list, as UN operations detracted from the Army’s ability to fulfill wartime tasks. The view of the Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) was that “Canadian participation in UN operations was secondary to NATO and continental defense”.[14] The Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) had at least one senior officer who thought the three services should be integrated into one as a “kind of combat police force”; however, the Chief of the Air Staff at that time disagreed.[15]

Successive governments since the inception of peacekeeping in 1956 have seen this particular military mission (peacekeeping) as a method of keeping the cost of maintaining a military to minimum and deploying troops on missions to maximize political gain with allies and the Canadian public. This is evident when Prime Minister Chretien stated, “We’re always there, like Boy Scouts, somewhat. We’re happy and Canadians love it. They think it’s a nice way for Canadians to be present around the world.”[16] The general civilian view is that “peacekeepers” are lightly armed (with small arms) and do not require expensive weapons systems such as tanks, artillery pieces, or for that matter helicopters and jet fighters.

To be fair, it was not only the Liberal governments who wanted to curry favour with allies or the public. Conservative governments have done the same. Under Prime Minister Mulroney, the government offered troops for the ill-fated mission in Somalia. Although this was viewed in government circles as another peacekeeping mission, it in fact turned out to be a Chapter VII mission, with a different mandate and different Rules of Engagement. It was decided that the Canadian Airborne Regiment (CAR) would be deployed to Somalia, with dire consequences. The CAR was viewed as an elite unit, who were stricken at that time with disciplinary problems and poor leadership.[17]

A focus on peacekeeping was a fatal distraction when it came to the matter of equipping the CF. The cancellation of the EH-101, with the resulting penalties (costing a half billion dollars) limited the operational ability of the helicopter squadrons tasked with Search and Rescue (SAR) operations, anti submarine warfare and transport duties. Despite the government White Paper of 1994 that stated Sea Kings were rapidly approaching the end of their operational life, they are just starting to be replaced.[18] CF-18s, which were purchased in early 80’s, are not due to be replaced until around 2020. [19] The CF 18s were deployed in Operation Desert Storm, however were tasked with flying escort missions, combat air patrols and reconnaissance missions.[20] In 1999, the CF 18s were deployed once again to Kosovo there was a problem with finding precision guided munitions to properly equip them.

The lack of up to date, modern equipment puts the CF at a disadvantage when tasked on operations whether it is a domestic operation or an internationally led one. Without the proper equipment, soldiers, sailors and airpersons cannot perform to their optimal capability as individuals. On a strategic level, without the proper equipment, the CF has interoperability issues when working with our allies such as the USA or the UK forces.

A result of the loss of certain types of equipment is the loss of the skill set of that particular piece of kit. The sale of our Chinook medium lift helicopters in the early 90’s is evidence of this. While the Chinooks were relatively easy to replace, the time that was invested in training personnel to operate the Chinooks was priceless. Once a skill set is lost, it is very difficult to regain.

Due to the focus on peacekeeping, one of the losses suffered by the CF during this time was the loss of skill in operational and strategic planning. In 1996, the government sent General Baril to the Democratic Republic of the Congo. According to Mr. Granatstein, the Prime Minister thought that a mission to a French speaking African country would sell well in Quebec. The proposed operation was poorly planned and cancelled. The CF itself criticized the methodology used by NDHQ to plan and mount missions.[21]

PUBLIC OPINION

There is no doubt that public opinion exerts influence over government actions or inaction. The Canadian public in general envisions peacekeepers in the traditional sense – lightly armed soldiers or unarmed observers who interpose themselves between two factions who have agreed to cease hostilities. This has translated, in some segments of the population to question the need for a multi purpose combat capable military, as Canadians are just peacekeepers – not soldiers, warriors or war fighters.[22]

This perception of lightly armed peacekeepers can translate into lower government expenditures on military equipment, such as new armoured vehicles (including tanks), artillery pieces, helicopters, strategic airlift, and jet fighters. After all, who needs these when all the CF does is peace keep?

As a result of less or no equipment, such as modern jet fighters, ships or tanks, it is difficult for the CF to maintain professionalism as an entity. It is also difficult to maintain credibility when dealing with our allies in NATO or NORAD.

CONCLUSION

The discussion whether or not peacekeeping was a fatal distraction for the CF and its professional ability will be debated for some time. In as much as peacekeeping in the traditional sense was seen as a break from garrison routine, or field exercises, peacekeeping was never seen within the CF as the primary mission, but one that contributed to international peace and security. The role of peacekeeper did not detract from the professionalism displayed by the troops of 2 PPCLI at the Medak Pocket, nor have any other peacekeeping missions, as Canadian troops and the CF as a whole have been internationally recognized as being professionals.

Where the fatal distraction lies is not with the men and women of the CF, it is with the successive Governments of Canada, who have used the military to balance budgets and curry favor with international alliances and the Canadian people. This distraction has led to an underfunded, poorly equipped military. The military has lost skill sets and people which are difficult to regain when you need them the most. The CF is also inexperienced in strategic and operational planning, and may have interoperability problems with allies.

The role of peacekeeping within the CF is but one component of military operations that has served to enhance military professionalism within the CF but not without associated issues caused by successive governments who allowed their focus on peacekeeping to distract them from providing the CF with the requisite direction and equipment to meet all operational requirements.



[1] “Soldiers Made Me Look Good” – Lewis MacKenzie
[2] Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words
[3] Ibid
[4] Peacekeeping: The Mid-East and Indo-China
[5] http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/pri/first-premier/roles-eng.asp
[6] http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/pri/first-premier/missions-eng.asp
[7] http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/2PPCLI/RH-United_Nations.asp
[8] http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/2ppcli/RH-United_Nations.asp
[9] Who Killed the Canadian Military? JL Granatstein Page 166
[10] Professionalism Under Fire: Canadian Implementation of the Medak Pocket Agreement, Croatia 1993
[11] Ibid
[12] Professionalism Under Fire: Canadian Implementation of the Medak Pocket Agreement, Croatia 1993
[13] Ibid
[14] Global Mobile” Flexible Response, Peacekeeping and the Origins of Forces Mobile Command, 1958-1964 – Sean M Maloney, PhD
[15] Ibid
[16] Who Killed the Canadian Military? JL Granatstein Pg 178
[17] Who Killed the Canadian Military? JL Granatstein Pg 152-155
[18] Ibid Pg 163-165
[19] http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1611146620100716
[20] http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=history/canadianforces/factsheets/persiangulf
[21] Who Killed the Canadian Military? JL Granatstein Pg 168-169
[22] Peacekeeping and Public Opinion - Peacekeeping and Public Opinion - Canadian Military Journal
 
Same aircraft that dropped them can drop supplies…

You know someone, a Traffic Tech, actually to try and sustain ships by dropping their parts to them at sea.

At face value that doesn't seem like a long term sustainment plan.
 
You know someone, a Traffic Tech, actually to try and sustain ships by dropping their parts to them at sea.
Hmm. To me that doesn’t seem to be very practical. But food and ammo for Paras doesn’t sink on land ;)
At face value that doesn't seem like a long term sustainment plan.
It’s not a long term one, as general Light Infantry and especially the Paratrooper subset is a rapid reaction force.
Leaving them anywhere for more than a few weeks and they will have found a village to pillage, and either sacked the local whorehouse or built one…
 
Only to existing airfields. An LST can land people and equipment at any beach it can reach. It's not an either/or thing. You need both. Start landing bulldozers and earthmoving equipment, you can get a rough airfield done, then your C130 can come in. I picked an LST as they will need less manpower than the Davie offering and cheaper to build and maintain.
Good Idea Fairy: "Sounds like a job for a parachute engineering platoon."


----

It seems to me that I recall tales in the 70's of the SSF practising LAPES deliveries of bulldozers to the Arctic. I couldn't find any confirming video or photos but here is a Sheridan being LAPES from a C130. Low Altitude Parachute Extraction was, I believe, eventually banned due to a fatal crash. The rapid change of centre of mass at very low altitude was, apparently, challenging.


...

Just sayin', you don't need to wait for the navy.
 
You know someone, a Traffic Tech, actually to try and sustain ships by dropping their parts to them at sea.

At face value that doesn't seem like a long term sustainment plan.
Mid-ocean paradrops of critical parts to a ship is not a crazy idea. I have come close to needing that on a couple occasions.
 
The plan I saw envisioned a container that the RHIB could at least tow back to the ship and then the crane would bring it to deck level.

Trust me, I understand the idea. I think we saw the same plans.

Again it depends on the parts, sea state and the ships ability to hoist them onboard.

I think on the surface level it sounds like a great idea, I just see lots of space for problems.

@dapaterson mentions one.
 

----

It seems to me that I recall tales in the 70's of the SSF practising LAPES deliveries of bulldozers to the Arctic. I couldn't find any confirming video or photos but here is a Sheridan being LAPES from a C130. Low Altitude Parachute Extraction was, I believe, eventually banned due to a fatal crash. The rapid change of centre of mass at very low altitude was, apparently, challenging.


...

Just sayin', you don't need to wait for the navy.
LAPES wasn’t banned down here, it just doesn’t make sense for most things.

When one looks at support for an airfield seizure it is actually faster to short land a C-130 or C-17 and drive off a vehicle, than to LAPES it off. As with LAPES you need to adopt a landing pattern type setup - albeit faster, push the pallet off while you are 10-15 AGL, have the pallet skid a distance, have the crew (who jumped in earlier) marry up to the vehicle, cut it out of the cargo netting/strapping, get in and get it combat ready.

As we found out the hard way several times, and a few times fatally - one can’t just LAPES stuff on undulating surfaces.
1) AC is at risk from surface items
2) AC is at risk from pallet shift from maneuvering once the LAPES is being setup.
3) AC is at risk from LAPES package getting stuck or impacting ground/intervening object before fully clear of AC

As well as the DZ hazard that LAPES parcels are to Paratroopers on the ground.
 
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