Approved Leave and they want to put me on a career course

[Crispy Bacon]

The good thing about the new system is- you can do MOD1, then MOD 2 and then a few weeks/months/etc and finish up with 3 then with 4. Each is their own course code and qualification- (due to PLQ-I and PLQ-A being different Mod 4)

True, however the new PLQ mod 4 needs to be completed within a set time frame of starting Mod 1.  So by going on Mod 1, then 2, you're saying you're willing to go on 3 and 4 within that time frame (I believe it's either 12 or 18 months).

 

[CountDC]

I'm curious if I have grounds for a complaint against the CM for this issue.  Thoughts?

Complain about what?  That your CM did his/her job and loaded you on a career course that you need in order to advance to a higher rank? Completing the PLQ does put you that much closer to your next promotion.  Who knows - maybe you will get promoted before the other guy that was number one for the course and got out of it.

Go on the course and reschedule your leave.  Document every penny this cost you and submit a CF52 claim.  Make sure you do not miss anything - booking, cancellation fees, credit card interest come to mind. Was there any currency exchange as you could also submit for a loss on exchange if there was any.  Submit it all as they are all expenses incurred for the trip they are making you cancel. Do you have written notice that you are recalled from leave or your leave has been cancelled by the CO?  That needs to be attached to the claim along with the leave pass.  Right now documents, reciepts and credit card statements are your best friends.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

This really does start with MCpls Lower SNCOs saying we have this guy this woman, this soldier, twiddling there thumb or screwing around for a few weeks, lets see if this can happen.

Lower Snr NCOs?  WTF it that?

Only Sgt's and PO2's are Snr NCOs.  Every good Jnr NCO knows that, right?

WO, MWO and CWO are Warrant Officers, not NCOs.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

For the OP, if you are flying, particularly with Air Canada, you might be hooped a bit. 

Short story;  I was loaded on my trade 3s course in Winnipeg, original start was late Nov '09.  Everything was booked, including my civie flight home for Christmas and my service flight back to the Peg.  Course was moved to the right, new start Jan '10.  I enquired with Air Canada - no refund, credit for another flight only.  Spoke to Wing OR.  Technically they couldn't reimburse me, because the Air Canada policy allowed the 'credit' to carry for a year before it was gone so technically I wasn't out any money yet.  Worked out for me, I used it for a trip home later in the course before the 60 days were up for my LTA.

So, if you do cancel your flights and rebook, you should get reimbursed the rebooking fee amount.  Hotels can be cancelled so you won't get anything back except a cancellation fee amount, if there is one.  Other than that, I wouldn't be counting on seeing a dime reimbursed because you didn't actually travel.  Just as a heads up, kinda thing.

My 2 cents on your situation;  go do your PLQ, reschedule the visit.  Refusing the course could be grounds to have your Leaf stripped, and let me tell you it sucks going backwards rank-wise (former Sgt, dropped to Cpl for my OT).  Your family will still be there.  The CAF has likely been paying you as a A/L Jack for a while now. Go earn it and be done of it.  For the record, I am NOT a fan of the "get Leaf, then get qual" stuff.  I did my CLC long before I got my Leaf the first time.  :2c:

Sure I know it's easy to say that, but FWIW I missed my first anniversary while on a career course.  Just part of the job.

Good luck, and as Kat said earlier, decide what hill you want to die on and if this is it.  Corporate memory can come back at a later date and kick you in the ass.

 

[garb811]

To me,
This is a bit BS.

I understand thw you signed the dotted line, its a career course etc.

But, you have been a MCpl A/L since 2012, I was promoted in 12 as well, completed my MOD 1-4, then waiting for the 5, then it changed to the Mod 1-4 deal. You can not exactly tell me that there was not an opportunity for you to do this course since 2012, I had multiple friends just complete one in Aldershot, and even before that there was several running in Pet, Even during mine in Pet there was several more, before and after. This is only two training areas, Gagetown runs them, as well as Wainwright, im gonna guess Shilo has some kind of PLQ set up? (Shilo is the only one I dont know that anyone has completed one there in the past two years since the system changed)

I think its a CoC failure here (god forbid I state that) since 2012, your CoC should of had you on the first one possible (presuming health). Not "last minute lets cause some needless paperwork" here. There wasnt a huge backlog either of people that needed it.

The good thing about the new system is- you can do MOD1, then MOD 2 and then a few weeks/months/etc and finish up with 3 then with 4. Each is their own course code and qualification- (due to PLQ-I and PLQ-A being different Mod 4)

For anyone else that could end up reading this thread, fight to get on your PLQ, pay attention to the course calender, if you know there is nothing major for your unit coming up, and you are on the bubble for a promotion, say hey, can I get loaded onto this. Because with all honesty, I had people on my course that were not getting their leaf within the near future and were there to fill space.

This really does start with MCpls Lower SNCOs saying we have this guy this woman, this soldier, twiddling there thumb or screwing around for a few weeks, lets see if this can happen.

Uhm...no. At least for the MP Branch. 

This is not a Chain of Command failure, the Chain of Command has limited input on getting people loaded, it is the sole purview of the CM to load career courses.  Why?  Because at this point in time, 95% of the MP Branch are promoted A/L, particularly with regard to PLP(L), ILP and ALP.  As a result we have a huge backlog of people requiring the courses and all levels of the chain of command are aware of this and they know better than to bug the CM about getting newly appointed A/L MCpl Bloggins course loaded as he really isn't doing much right then because all the CM is going to do is laugh and tell the person to call back in two and a half years if it hasn't happened yet.

Not sure how it is working for other Branches but for us, the CM gets allocated "x" number of positions per course.  Due to the backlog, they will be filled in order of the CMs priority list.  First up are A/L pers merit listed for promotion to Sgt, which happens.  Next up are pers selected for OUTCAN postings or postings to High Op Tempo units such as CFPSU or the Air Marshals in the next APS.  After that it is pers who are 2+  years A/L.  Then they start working on the rest.  This can suck for certain people, I know of people who have received less than a weeks notice of their course loading due to the initial candidate going on MELs.

Direction has come down that Mod 2-4 will be completed sequentially.  While it is nice in theory to say that you can do them whenever within the time frame due to the course code and qualification, logistically it is a nightmare to coordinate and our CM, at least, won't normally allow it.

Finally, if you haven't attained substantive rank within three years, you will lose it.  I have seen it happen and the member lost the redress of grievance.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Oh, I thought it was 2 yrs to get the qual by the regs (which may/may not be followed rigorously  8)).

 

[McG]

I'm curious if I have grounds for a complaint against the CM for this issue.  Thoughts?

No.  It was/is your CO's decision to cancel your leave or not.  If you have cause to grieve, then your grievance is within the unit.

Don't make any changes to your leave plans until you have the cancel order from the CO.  Bureaucrats will try to avoid the costs of covering your expenses if dates on the paperwork don't have the right chronology.

 

[TCM621]

Have you talked to the padre? From my point of view the finicial aspect is irrelevant, they pay period. The real issue is the part about meeting your son for the first time. Without digging into your personal life here, their has to be a back story there and I bet it would be enough to get the padre involved.
Also, he is not declining PLQ, he is asking for permission to get put on another course due to a very important family commitment which was approved in advance.
His family or his career shouldn't have to suffer because some people couldn't be bothered to look in mite and peoplesoft.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Have you talked to the padre? From my point of view the finicial aspect is irrelevant, they pay period. The real issue is the part about meeting your son for the first time. Without digging into your personal life here, their has to be a back story there and I bet it would be enough to get the padre involved.
Also, he is not declining PLQ, he is asking for permission to get put on another course due to a very important family commitment which was approved in advance.
His family or his career shouldn't have to suffer because some people couldn't be bothered to look in mite and peoplesoft.

See above about choosing hills and whatnot.  Get a rep as "that guy" and have a pretty crappy future.

 

[upandatom]

Lower Snr NCOs?  WTF it that?

Only Sgt's and PO2's are Snr NCOs.  Every good Jnr NCO knows that, right?

WO, MWO and CWO are Warrant Officers, not NCOs.

Sgts and WOs are the ones that will, could and should be fighting for their guys to get on course. Not to just leave them hanging until last minute.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Sgts and WOs are the ones that will, could and should be fighting for their guys to get on course. Not to just leave them hanging until last minute.

The process starts with the potential candidate and you MCpls. If you're a MCpl, it starts with you discussing career plans with your Supervisors. This isn't a one way street and we're not mind readers.

 

[Griffon]

Slightly off topic, but supervisors should be having conversations with corporals that are showing leadership potential, suggesting that they request being loaded on a PLQ themselves when having their CM interview.  If the member is suitable for promotion, and shows the interest to get loaded, the CM will most likely oblige provided slots are available.  Doesn't always happen of course, but it definitely doesn't hurt to ask, and I'm sure the CM would love to field a question other than "Am I posted?".  Same goes for newly appointed MCpls.  It is indeed very true that the member can have a good deal of influence on the management of their own career (subject to service requirements of course).

As for this particular case, it is a shame that the course loading wasn't altered earlier, but is most likely due to the fact that the OP was promoted two years ago.  Once the CoC backed the CM by ordering the OP off leave, the line was drawn in the sand.  Given the circumstances, I don't think it will end well if you try to fight this one.  Don't hold a grudge, it is what it is, just go get it done and be glad that your career has been given the opportunity to advance.

 

[George Wallace]

Slightly off topic, but supervisors should be having conversations with corporals that are showing leadership potential, suggesting that they request being loaded on a PLQ themselves when having their CM interview.  If the member is suitable for promotion, and shows the interest to get loaded, the CM will most likely oblige provided slots are available.  Doesn't always happen of course, but it definitely doesn't hurt to ask, and I'm sure the CM would love to field a question other than "Am I posted?".  Same goes for newly appointed MCpls.  It is indeed very true that the member can have a good deal of influence on the management of their own career (subject to service requirements of course).

As for this particular case, it is a shame that the course loading wasn't altered earlier, but is most likely due to the fact that the OP was promoted two years ago.  Once the CoC backed the CM by ordering the OP off leave, the line was drawn in the sand.  Given the circumstances, I don't think it will end well if you try to fight this one.  Don't hold a grudge, it is what it is, just go get it done and be glad that your career has been given the opportunity to advance.

???

Supervisors should be doing this all along.  They should be, at the very minimum, talking to their subordinates' on a quarterly basis when they do their PDR's and then PER's.  In the Cbt Arms, the Troop Ldr/Pl Ldr should also be conducting regular interviews with their troops.  The shirking of this "administration" hurts the member.  The old UER system of keeping track of your personnel and their welfare has disappeared with digitalization and reliance on MITE and other systems, along with the lax practices of junior leaders (NCO and officer) to populate those databases. 

 

[Griffon]

It wasn't something that was discussed with members when I was a corporal in Cold Lake, you just went on your PLQ when you were told to.  It actually seemed more normal for people to avoid gong on the course.  People were amazed when I told them I asked for mine, it just wasn't normal there.  Not sure if it was just an "Air Force thing", or an isolated attitude due to the environment, but it was never suggested to me that I ask.

 

[TCM621]

See above about choosing hills and whatnot.  Get a rep as "that guy" and have a pretty crappy future.

Personally, and this is obviously based on the little information we have, anyone who judges me harshly for choosing "meeting my son for the first time" over PLQ mod 2 isn't worth worrying about. Their priorities will never match with mine and I would just deal with it as best I can. This isn't I wanna go see motley crew or go to Jamaica for a holiday, this is his son.
If it was anything other than a major family commitment, I would totally agree with people who say don't bother just get the money and the course.

 

[MJP]

Personally, and this is obviously based on the little information we have, anyone who judges me harshly for choosing "meeting my son for the first time" over PLQ mod 2 isn't worth worrying about. Their priorities will never match with mine and I would just deal with it as best I can. This isn't I wanna go see motley crew or go to Jamaica for a holiday, this is his son.
If it was anything other than a major family commitment, I would totally agree with people who say don't bother just get the money and the course.

He isn't meeting his son for the first time, their family is.

I have an approved leave pass and they want to put me on PLQ Mod 2 during the time.  I already have flights for my wife, son and I and a hotel booked and paid for.  On top of things my family is supposed to meet our son for the first time which is why we are taking the trip and they have booked time off work for us to come.

That said in the case you stated I agree with you.

As others have said, if I was OP and my unit wanted me on a crse (especially when it is a crse that is run fairly often like PLQ) that bad, I would wait for my CO to order me off leave so they can pay.

 

[TCM621]

He isn't meeting his son for the first time, their family is.
That said in the case you stated I agree with you.

As others have said, if I was OP and my unit wanted me on a crse (especially when it is a crse that is run fairly often like PLQ) that bad, I would wait for my CO to order me off leave so they can pay.

OK that makes a lot more sense. In that case, get reimbursed, go on course and take a vacation after.

 

[upandatom]

The process starts with the potential candidate and you MCpls. If you're a MCpl, it starts with you discussing career plans with your Supervisors. This isn't a one way street and we're not mind readers.

I fully agree, I did not mean to leave out the MCpl from the equation. When push comes to shove, its the MCpl that pushes it up, but the Sgt. and WO saying- Listen we have this, we can improve and give this member a chance to prove themselves. They are the ones that give it the muscle to push it up, they have the voice to be heard. Not that MCpl, or even the Cpl.

Im not seeing that anymore. More often then naught, seeing the chasing of personal ambitions and goals, regardless of who or what is in the way.

(I am not saying ALL Snr NCOs are this way by any means, before some of you tend to twist my words and bend them like a spoon)


All I am sayinhg is that I am seeing more and more of this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_leader

Which scares me because if that is what the Junior NCM sees, they see it as ok, and it becomes a norm other then exception. All I can do as a leader is avoid that and look out for my guys and find that good balance, that "yes this sucks, but remember we had this and this which was good"

 

[Jarnhamar]

Show up on course and record every infraction, rule being bent and improper comment you hear 

 

[Navy_Pete]

Did the PLQ selection process change?  From what I remember from a few years ago, there is a joining package that includes an interview with the divO to pick up things like that, and once it's done, the unit is supposed to confirm the selection.

Had a few folks loaded on PLQ that for several reasons wasn't the best time for them (required for a deployement, starting PATA, etc), and it wasn't an issue to get the course loading date changed.

Think with all the PLQ courses running all the time, and the budget shortages where the unit would have to pick up for canceling leave, seems like a no brainer.