Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

[Monsoon]

Just because it's anticipated as such, doesn't mean it won't be thrust upon it one day.  If, the Arctic is going to be a potential flash point who knows what might happen done the road.  I am sure there are many examples of Constabulary forces thrust into combat unexpectedly.  (NWMP in 1885 for one)  And even they had field guns.

The NWMP were formed and equipped to put down another Red River Rebellion-style armed insurrection.

Using your line of logic we might as well have mounted Harpoons and a CIWS on QUEST. Weapons' fit isn't static; whatever geopolitical situation may be developing in the arctic is developing slowly enough that we'll have loooots of time to upgrade the deck gun if and when needed.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

From what I have seen after deploying to the Arctic on ship five times now, the stuff we did will mostly likely be the same kind of stuff AOPS will be doing and 99% percent of that is very boring but absoultely needed. If we need an armed combatant AOPS will call in Air or vector in a warship. AOPS will be ill suited to survive any direct combat situation, its simply not built for that.

And neither would one of our current MCDV survive such combat as they are also not built for that, as neither were the minesweepers before; and neither could a WWII corvette have survived contact with the Bismark, etc. etc.

That does not mean that they are not warships or that they serve no purpose, just that their purpose does not require them to be Battleships.

AOPS will be constabulary, but my suspicion is that they won't ever have to fire a shot in anger. So much so, in fact, that I would not be surprised to see them being turned over to the Coast Guard within 5 years of entering service. IMO, the most useful thing they could possibly do would be to load the survey gear and assist with the surveying required to completely update the nautical charts for the area, which to this day remain the most incomplete ones in Canada.

As for the 25 mm gun, too bad it's going to be the BAE one. Would have loved to see us adopt the same Raphael Typhoon the Aussies use: That could have justified "training" exchanges with the RAN on their Armidale patrol boats.  One can always dream. 

 

[Stoker]

And neither would one of our current MCDV survive such combat as they are also not built for that, as neither were the minesweepers before; and neither could a WWII corvette have survived contact with the Bismark, etc. etc.

That does not mean that they are not warships or that they serve no purpose, just that their purpose does not require them to be Battleships.

AOPS will be constabulary, but my suspicion is that they won't ever have to fire a shot in anger. So much so, in fact, that I would not be surprised to see them being turned over to the Coast Guard within 5 years of entering service. IMO, the most useful thing they could possibly do would be to load the survey gear and assist with the surveying required to completely update the nautical charts for the area, which to this day remain the most incomplete ones in Canada.

As for the 25 mm gun, too bad it's going to be the BAE one. Would have loved to see us adopt the same Raphael Typhoon the Aussies use: That could have justified "training" exchanges with the RAN on their Armidale patrol boats.  One can always dream. 

I agree that they will most likely never fire a shot in anger, most of what they will do is exactly what the MCDV's currently do and that is to show the flag, patrol and an armed presence in the Arctic. When not in the Arctic, they will do fisheries, relief missions and anything else the RCN deems for them, just like what the MCDV's currently do but with a more capable platform. I would imagine they will a large role in force generation as well as they will have a large number of training bunks. I highly doubt the AOPS will be turned over to CCG willingly, memories of HMCS Labrador still are fresh and if Adm Newton is still about this will never happen. I agree that hydrographic work will be a major task for them, just as HMCS Kingston only recently did off Arctic Bay last fall.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Don't know what you means concerning the LABRADOR, Chief.

She was transferred to the Coast Guard in 1957. A boy seaman serving onboard would be 75 years old today, so I have no idea who could possibly have a fresh memory of her.

There never was any "bad" memory of this transfer by the Navy. I joined in 1975 and never did I hear anyone bemoan the fact that we "got rid of LABRADOR". She did her few patrols - mostly helped with the original DEW line radar sites construction, and was quietly turned over to the CG near the height of the RCN post war fleet build up, not as a cost cutting measure, but because it was quickly found she served no real defence purpose.

 

[jollyjacktar]

The NWMP were formed and equipped to put down another Red River Rebellion-style armed insurrection.

Using your line of logic we might as well have mounted Harpoons and a CIWS on QUEST. Weapons' fit isn't static; whatever geopolitical situation may be developing in the arctic is developing slowly enough that we'll have loooots of time to upgrade the deck gun if and when needed.

Actually, no, the NWMP were not formed for that reason.  My Great Grandfather was one of the original 300.  They were formed to try and put down the Whiskey Trade that was originating from Montana as well as to bring law and order to the territories.  The NW Rebellion of 1885 came 12 years after the creation of the NWMP in 1873. 

My point, is that just because the GoC envisions a constabulary presence in the form of AOPS being just a constabulary presence doesn't mean that they might not find themselves in the shyte all of a sudden.  I am not suggesting the 25mm gun is enough or not enough for that role.  Only that, that role, might all of a sudden change into something bigger.  As someone else pointed out the USCG is a constabulary force overall, but they are prepared to do more if forced upon it, as has happened.  That, was my point.

 

[Kirkhill]

Then put a big enough hole in the deck in which you can bury a container that can handle the 25, a 57, a 76 or even a pack of ESSMs.

It has been done before.  You could even put a removable whisky locker in the space if the primary purpose was to keep Hans Island free of Danes in a non-threatening manner.

 

[Monsoon]

Actually, no, the NWMP were not formed for that reason.  My Great Grandfather was one of the original 300.  They were formed to try and put down the Whiskey Trade that was originating from Montana as well as to bring law and order to the territories.  The NW Rebellion of 1885 came 12 years after the creation of the NWMP in 1873. 

And the Red River Rebellion of 1869/70 came about three years prior to the formation of the NWMP. As it's off the topic of this thread, I'm going to invite you not to try to convince me the two were completely unrelated. I concede that the NWMP subsequently did lots of customs enforcement, but that's not why they were given cannons.

My point, is that just because the GoC envisions a constabulary presence in the form of AOPS being just a constabulary presence doesn't mean that they might not find themselves in the shyte all of a sudden.  I am not suggesting the 25mm gun is enough or not enough for that role.  Only that, that role, might all of a sudden change into something bigger.  As someone else pointed out the USCG is a constabulary force overall, but they are prepared to do more if forced upon it, as has happened.  That, was my point.

If something like that happened "all of the sudden" without any I&W leading up to it, it would be pretty unprecedented. At present, we have no reason to expect an armed confrontation in the arctic and have equipped ourselves accordingly. What we do need is ISR, and we're getting that.

Then put a big enough hole in the deck in which you can bury a container that can handle the 25, a 57, a 76 or even a pack of ESSMs.

It's fitted for a payload. Modularized packages that carry everything from ESSMs to Harpoons are readily available for purchase off the shelf (the sort the Danish Flyvefisken-class OPVs use). If and when we decide we need them.

 

[Stoker]

Don't know what you means concerning the LABRADOR, Chief.

She was transferred to the Coast Guard in 1957. A boy seaman serving onboard would be 75 years old today, so I have no idea who could possibly have a fresh memory of her.

There never was any "bad" memory of this transfer by the Navy. I joined in 1975 and never did I hear anyone bemoan the fact that we "got rid of LABRADOR". She did her few patrols - mostly helped with the original DEW line radar sites construction, and was quietly turned over to the CG near the height of the RCN post war fleet build up, not as a cost cutting measure, but because it was quickly found she served no real defence purpose.

The Labrador gave the RCN a capability way back in the 50's that we never regained. Many people today call for "armed icebreakers" to built rather than the AOPS. It was a crying shame that the RCN gave her up and many at the time didn't agree with it due to the cold war. Many of the charts we still use today were based on hydrographic work conducted in Labrador while in the RCN.  I had a opportunity to talk with the MARLANT Commander only recently and we drew many comparisions with Labrador and Harry DeWolf. AOPS will give the RCN some of the similar capability that we lost when Labrador was transferred.

 

[Kirkhill]

It's fitted for a payload. Modularized packages that carry everything from ESSMs to Harpoons are readily available for purchase off the shelf (the sort the Danish Flyvefisken-class OPVs use). If and when we decide we need them.

Eggzackly - The Danish Stanflex System - http://www.seaforces.org/wpnsys/SURFACE/STANFLEX-modules.htm

The squarish bucket below holds all the mechanical and electrical systems and drops into the hole.  The stuff on top sticks out on top of the deck and does the work.

And the Red River Rebellion of 1869/70 came about three years prior to the formation of the NWMP. As it's off the topic of this thread, I'm going to invite you not to try to convince me the two were completely unrelated. I concede that the NWMP subsequently did lots of customs enforcement, but that's not why they were given cannons.

WRT NWMP 9 Pdrs - This is why they took 2x 9 Pdrs and 2x Brass Mortars.

The Whisky Traders at Whoop Up were a bit more than a Customs and Excise problem.

No doubt Louis Riel, and the Fenians, and the Blackfoot, and Sitting Bull and the US Army played into the decisions in terms of arming the 300.  But even the "the non-state actors" of the day presented a significant problem.  (Actually, come to think of it the only State Actors in the picture were the US Army and they were likely the least of the problems).

Here's how the locals rationalize the raising of the NWMP.

http://nwmp.wikispaces.com/1870+-+Danger+in+the+West

And THIS one

 

[Old Sweat]

Mods, we might e creating another thread here.

Actually the NWMP took 2 7-pdrs that had been used by the artillery detachment in the Red River garrison established after the Red River expedition. Strange as it seems, the Liberals, who had replaced the Conservatives because of the Pacific Scandal, did not want to form the force because of the costs. Instead, according to a report by the Governor General to the Colonial Office (which I have read,) Prime Minister Mackenzie wanted to ask the US Army to pacify the Canadian West. The GG was not impressed.

What this has to do with AOPS beats me, but somebody might be able to connect the dots.

 

[Goose15]

Thank you for making me feel old.

Don't feel old! I'm "just a young'un" and I almost cried when I read that  first post ;D

 

[Kirkhill]

Mods, we might e creating another thread here.

Actually the NWMP took 2 7-pdrs that had been used by the artillery detachment in the Red River garrison established after the Red River expedition. Strange as it seems, the Liberals, who had replaced the Conservatives because of the Pacific Scandal, did not want to form the force because of the costs. Instead, according to a report by the Governor General to the Colonial Office (which I have read,) Prime Minister Mackenzie wanted to ask the US Army to pacify the Canadian West. The GG was not impressed.

What this has to do with AOPS beats me, but somebody might be able to connect the dots.

Gilbert and Sullivan to the Rescue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpVbBH9Ip8I

Constabulary work donchano?  ;D

 

[Kirkhill]

Gilbert and Sullivan to the Rescue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpVbBH9Ip8I

Constabulary work donchano?  ;D

Maybe that will make Goose15 happier.

 

[jollyjacktar]

As it's off the topic of this thread, I'm going to invite you not to try to convince me the two were completely unrelated.

No worries, I won't try to convince you as you have your own opinions and theories. 

Kirkhill does have some nice photos of Ft Whoop-Up posted which was at present day Lethbridge, AB, 50 km east of where I grew up and where the NWMP started to really operate from.  When they arrived in force at the fort they found it to be very recently abandoned by the Whiskey Traders who had fled in advance of first contact.  And I'll leave it at that.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

and the Cougars would never deploy.....

These ships need to be built with enough hardpoints to be able to mount enough armaments and counter measures to be effective. Any gun is better than no gun, but chances are that this type of ships may very well be involved in some heavy diplomacy by itself, far from support and it will be a close in shoving match and the meanest looking ship is going to win, even if not a shot is fired. The problem with a missile is it does not lend itself well to warning shots. Frankly a 57mm and some missiles along with counter measures is the way to go. Possibly in their life time they will also mount small defensive lasers. Walking softly while carrying a big enough stick often solve problems before they get out of hand.

Plus the people who don't like you, consider any of your naval vessels a warship and will treat it as such. Regardless of what you think or say you are doing.

I also think every CCG large vessel need integrated hardpoints in the design with supporting comms, electrical services fitted. I would like to see a war stock of naval weapons stored that can be fitted on short notice to the above mentioned hardpoints and ships and crews cycled throuhg   

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Re-produced under the usual caveats of the Copyright Act.
   

  Strengthening Canada's Capability In The Arctic; Lockheed Martin Canada Awarded Implementation Subcontract For Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ships

Published: Apr 8, 2015 9:00 a.m. ET   

OTTAWA, April 8, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- Lockheed Martin Canada [LMT: NYSE] announced today that it has been awarded the implementation subcontract by Irving Shipbuilding Inc. as command and surveillance system integrator for the Royal Canadian Navy's (RCN) new class of Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ships (AOPS).

Lockheed Martin Canada is one of AOPS Prime Contractor Irving Shipbuilding's Tier 1 suppliers for delivering the AOPS vessels as part of the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy (NSPS). With a contract valued at more than C$170M, Lockheed Martin Canada is responsible for key integration of data and information sources to increase the ships' situational awareness and provide command, control and decision support at all levels of command for the new vessels.

Rosemary Chapdelaine, vice president and general manager of Lockheed Martin Canada's Ottawa-based Mission Systems and Training (MST) business, said "Our team facilitates tight collaboration with the shipyard, subcontractors and the Navy, and we are pleased to be moving to the next stage of the AOPS program on schedule. Our ability to coordinate among these stakeholders on complex programs is our blueprint for success."

Lockheed Martin Canada was able to leverage its innovative combat management system from the Halifax Class Modernization (HCM) program for surveillance purposes on AOPS, offering a highly capable, low-risk solution for the project.

Chapdelaine continues, "This award, along with our continued milestone achievements to extend the life of the Halifax-class patrol frigates, strengthens our team's capability to deliver enduring value for the RCN and for Canada."

The naval capability built in Canada also provides an entry into the world market. The recent contract award for the New Zealand Frigate System Upgrade is directly attributable to the expertise and record of success Lockheed Martin Canada has established with HCM and now AOPS.

Success on these Canadian naval programs is in large part attributed to Lockheed Martin Canada's strong Canadian supply chain. LM Canada manages four Canada-based subcontractors as part of the AOPS contract. These subcontractors were selected from a competition during the design phase. Across all programs, the company has managed over 700 contracts with Canadian companies across nine provinces in the country. This work offers Canadian companies an opportunity to broaden their portfolios to sustain and grow their businesses.

"Lockheed Martin Canada is a key partner in achieving best quality and value for Canada in the production of the Arctic Offshore Patrol Ships," said Kevin McCoy, President of Irving Shipbuilding Inc.  "We have worked with them over the last 3 years to find the right command and surveillance solution to best serve the Navy in these important ships and to achieve the best overall benefit to Canada. I am pleased to have them on the AOPS team."

AOPS is a Government of Canada procurement project for the RCN. The project is expected to equip the Canadian Forces with six naval ice-capable offshore patrol ships able to assert and enforce sovereignty in Canada's waters where and when necessary, including the Arctic. The ships will conduct missions for northern surveillance, search and rescue, and interoperation with the Canadian Forces and other government organizations. The first Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship is scheduled to be delivered in 2018.

About Lockheed Martin CanadaLockheed Martin Canada has more than 850 employees at major facilities in Ottawa, Montreal, Dartmouth, Calgary, and Victoria, as well as Department of National Defence sites across the country, and is a leader in the delivery and integration of naval combat systems, radar platforms, avionics, electronic warfare, data fusion, commercial engine repair and overhaul, and performance-based logistics.

About NSPS Combatant Fleet Contract:In 2011, with the goal of building Canadian ships in Canada, the federal government established a strategic relationship with two Canadian shipyards, selected through an open and fair national competition, for large ship construction and designated them as sources of supply, one for combat vessels and the other for non-combat vessels.

Irving Shipbuilding was selected as Canada's Combatant Shipbuilder under the merit-based National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy (NSPS) and is in the early stages of a 30-year military shipbuilding program. The company is currently working on the Definition Contract for the first set of vessels, the Arctic Offshore Patrol Ships (AOPS), working toward the September 2015 cut steel date for the AOPS ships.  The combatant portion of the NSPS program is comprised of 6 ice-capable AOPS, as well as up to 15 Canadian Surface Combatants, to replace the Canadian Navy's current frigates and destroyers. The NSPS program is designed to generate opportunities for shipbuilding trades, technology and systems suppliers, marine professionals and knowledge building partners across Canada, returning economic benefits to Canadians.

For additional information, visit our website: http://www.lockheedmartin.com

Logo - http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnh/20141118/159313LOGO

To view the original version on PR Newswire, visit:http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/strengthening-canadas-capability-in-the-arctic-lockheed-martin-canada-awarded-implementation-subcontract-for-arcticoffshore-patrol-ships-300062607.html

SOURCE Lockheed Martin Canada

Copyright (C) 2015 PR Newswire. All rights reserved

Article Link

 

[Stoker]

Ship named after 100-year-old Sask war hero

Saskatchewan nurse Margaret Brooke was aboard the SS Caribou when it was torpedoed off the coast of Newfoundland on Oct. 13, 1942.

Brooke’s heroic actions in the aftermath of the ship’s sinking earned her the Order of the British Empire, making her the only Canadian nurse to receive such an honour during the Second World War.

Now Brooke, who turned 100 years old Saturday, is being honoured again. The federal government announced a Canadian Arctic patrol ship will bear her name. Construction of the HMCS Margaret Brooke is set to begin in the fall.

The Royal Canadian Navy will employ the patrol ship to conduct sovereignty and surveillance operations in Canadian waters on all three coasts, including in the Arctic, according to a federal government news release.

Brooke said in a statement Saturday she was “amazed” and “honoured” to hear about the ship being named after her. She was told personally in a phone call Friday by Minister of National Defence Jason Kenney.

On Saturday — her 100th birthday — Brooke received a visit and birthday wishes from Commodore Bob Auchterlonie, Commander Canadian Fleet Pacific,

“I was and remain very proud of my years serving in the Royal Canadian Navy and thank all who were involved in making my 100th birthday an even more memorable occasion,” Brooke said.

Kenney said in a statement the arctic/offshore patrol ships are being named after Canadian naval heroes “who displayed outstanding leadership and heroism” while serving during wartime.

“It is in fact a privilege for our country that Margaret Brooke will lend her name to one of our naval ships, as her courage and self-sacrifice have inspired, and will continue to inspire, generations of Canadian Naval personnel for years to come.”

Brooke was born in Ardath, a village located approximately 70 kilometres southwest of Saskatoon.

She enlisted in the Second World War on March 9, 1942, as a “nursing sister/dietician.” She was eventually promoted to the rank of lieutenant-commander. She was a passenger on the SS Caribou Oct. 13, 1942, as it attempted to cross the Cabot Strait off the coast of Newfoundland.

The ship was hunted and torpedoed by the German submarine U-69, according to government records. It took only five minutes for the Caribou to sink.

Submerged in the icy water, Brooke clung to a rope on a capsized life boat. She spotted friend and fellow nurse, Sub-Lt. Agnes Wilkie similarly clinging to a rope on the life boat. Wilkie, however, was weakening.

Brooke took one hand off the rope and held Wilkie. For more than two hours, Brooke kept Wilkie from drowning.

Eventually, the frigid water proved too much. Wilkie died.

Brooke was rescued, and was named a Member of the Order of the British Empire for her heroism the following year.

Brooke returned to her studies at the University of Saskatchewan. She earned a doctorate in paleontology and went on to author several major research studies in her field.

She retired to Victoria, B.C., where she still lives.
© Copyright (c) The StarPhoenix

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Far from me to want to diminish the recognition of Lcdr Brooke's heroism in any way, but am I the only one here who feels the ships naming process has been hijacked by the Government for pure political reasons lately?

First, it was the supply vessels that got names from land battles in a war that pre-dates Confederation and the creation of the Navy, and was for all practical purpose between the USA and England - not "Canada" per se. Now we are naming ships after people - people that did something out of the ordinary to be sure - but still, people, which is an American tradition, not a Canadian one.

What happened to the tradition of naming our ships after places in Canada to create a link with the community and the country, which was reactivated starting with the CPF's? Naming ships after people, like De Wolf and Brooke does not create any connection with Canadian communities and, IMO will not cause too many people to want to go and check who they were, to learn more on their personal histories.

Mods, perhaps this post and the replies to it should go in anew tread, perhaps called "Political interference in ship's naming" or "Ship's naming gone bonkers!"

 

[Colin Parkinson]

On the bright side, they aren't naming them after flowers  ;D

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

We never did !