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Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

Blake Castelein said:
So is all the class can do is just break light ice and be a body up in the arctic to remind everyone we own it? And then if need be pick off little boats with the 25mm?

When you think of it the AOPS is a security guard.  Security guards check the fences, have a presence, get to know their area so they know when things are "off".  They check out noises and work with the "company" to ensure that the  business runs properly and no unauthorized people get in without having the papers checked.

If something bad actually happens then security might be able to escort compliant violators off the property, and can probably handle the odd upset employee or protester with little or no capability to fight back.

However if someone shows up with a gun or as an organized criminal enterprise security guards call the cops.  Because the cops are trained to deal with all sorts of stuff and have the capability, training, equipment and firepower to deal with everything. 

AOPS is the security guard.  The CF-18, subs and major surface combatants are the police.

Now you can add a bunch of capabilities to the AOPS to help forces ashore, do SAR, provide C&C, attached Air Dets the whole works but they are essentially a security guard at the end of the day.
 
Except it will be the security guard caught against real nasties with the Subs a week away, and CF-18 that might be able to get their within 5 hrs, likely carrying the wrong armament load (air to air missiles) and no bombs and only guns to engage with. that is if weather cooperates.

Building that size of ship and not adequately arming them is criminal.
 
Colin P said:
Except it will be the security guard caught against real nasties with the Subs a week away, and CF-18 that might be able to get their within 5 hrs, likely carrying the wrong armament load (air to air missiles) and no bombs and only guns to engage with. that is if weather cooperates.

Building that size of ship and not adequately arming them is criminal.

Respectfully disagree.  Painting them Red and/or putting a Red Cross on them is an alternate strategy.  Lighting them up brightly with bands playing has also been used. None of them are a sure cure against being sunk.

It is all about managed risk.  The risk of running into an undetected enemy in our near shore waters is rated very low.  Low enough that unarmed civilians can operate there freely.  Before the ship's radar detects incoming air elements NORAD, and even NAVCan will likely have been tracking the target.

Far better to save the defensive bucks for vessels that are going into high threat areas.

Having said that: if somebody decides to send a brightly lit vessel, with bands playing and no defences into a high threat area - now that would be criminal.
 
Colin P said:
Except it will be the security guard caught against real nasties with the Subs a week away, and CF-18 that might be able to get their within 5 hrs, likely carrying the wrong armament load (air to air missiles) and no bombs and only guns to engage with. that is if weather cooperates.

Building that size of ship and not adequately arming them is criminal.

So then what armament and defenses should they have against an Akula III?

[asked only half tongue in cheek]

Cheers
G2G
 
Colin P said:
Except it will be the security guard caught against real nasties with the Subs a week away, and CF-18 that might be able to get their within 5 hrs, likely carrying the wrong armament load (air to air missiles) and no bombs and only guns to engage with. that is if weather cooperates.

Building that size of ship and not adequately arming them is criminal.

I just spent a number of weeks at Gascoyne Inlet laying acoustic sensors across part of the Northwest passage for Northern watch. Once the system is in place, we'll have lots of warning to call in the big guys.

 
Good2Golf said:
So then what armament and defenses should they have against an Akula III?

[asked only half tongue in cheek]

Cheers
G2G

If an Akula is shooting at us (aside from wasting its ammo) we have a whole other world of problems, and I'll pray for the crew, and the rest of the country while we're at it.
 
Underway said:
If an Akula is shooting at us (aside from wasting its ammo) we have a whole other world of problems, and I'll pray for the crew, and the rest of the country while we're at it.

Of course, and puts into question Colin P's assertion that arming a constabulary vessel so lightly, as intended, was tantamount to a criminal activity.
 
Good2Golf said:
Of course, and puts into question Colin P's assertion that arming a constabulary vessel so lightly, as intended, was tantamount to a criminal activity.

True.

Even the Halifax class would be hard pressed to find and deal with an Akula III by itself any way.  That's why you have SOSUS, MPA's and MH's etc...  Teamwork is key.
 
Who said it needs to be a sub? Not everyone agrees with our assertion of sovereignty, including our major ally. who might decide to sit back and do nothing. A well armed ship in the right place will make tangling with it to high a price and would allow the ship and crew to stand their ground against surface ships that intend to push through with veiled threats. By making a serious effort, you reduce the likelihood of a crisis. A lightly armed vessel will not be seen as real deterrent.   
 
Colin P said:
Who said it needs to be a sub? Not everyone agrees with our assertion of sovereignty, including our major ally. who might decide to sit back and do nothing. A well armed ship in the right place will make tangling with it to high a price and would allow the ship and crew to stand their ground against surface ships that intend to push through with veiled threats. By making a serious effort, you reduce the likelihood of a crisis. A lightly armed vessel will not be seen as real deterrent. 

CPFs and CSCs can still operate in the high arctic. No one really has armed icebreakers, and certainly nothing that's going to be any more menacing than the DeWolfe-class.

So, if anyone does send a surface ship that is well armed to challenge our sovereignty, then it will have to be in conditions that will allow us to send CPFs/CSCs in response. Ergo, you don't need to arm the Harries to the teeth.
 
I guess I don't have your faith that all the puzzle pieces will fit when the time comes. (or that they work, have not been sold, etc)
 
Colin P said:
I guess I don't have your faith that all the puzzle pieces will fit when the time comes. (or that they work, have not been sold, etc)

Oh I have my doubts. For example, I've heard the 25mm on the Harries won't have a cupola to protect them from the elements. I'm sure the Finish fisherman or Russian SigInt vessels will be very intimidated when HMCS Margaret Brooke can't even train her guns on them.

Also, they are only ice "hardened" meaning they will only be capable of handling first year ice. I can just see the headlines now:

"New RCN 'Arctic' vessels spending most of their time outside the 'Arctic'"

"New RCN 'Ice Breaker' damaged in collision with Ice!"

"HMCS Max Bernays stuck in the ice...again!"
 
You have to start making a lot more compromises when dealing with multi-year ice of any thickness. We had one of our CCG ice breakers (Camsull) sliced open by a growler.
 
Colin P said:
Who said it needs to be a sub? Not everyone agrees with our assertion of sovereignty, including our major ally. who might decide to sit back and do nothing. A well armed ship in the right place will make tangling with it to high a price and would allow the ship and crew to stand their ground against surface ships that intend to push through with veiled threats. By making a serious effort, you reduce the likelihood of a crisis. A lightly armed vessel will not be seen as real deterrent. 

Actually Colin, I am sorry to say on this one you are wrong.

I wish people talking about Arctic sovereignty would take the time, first to look at the situation on a globe, not on flattened and distorted maps.

ABOVE (considering the North Pole to be "Up") the northernmost Canadian piece of land, on one side, and the European/Asian northernmost piece of land is a huge expanse of water called the Arctic ocean. It is three times the size of the Mediterranean sea. That Arctic ocean is international water, like any other ocean, as of now.

In practice, with very few exceptions, no one goes there other than Canadian, American and Russian ice breakers doing mostly research and show the flag because it is iced over permanently, except near the edges. As a result, the various Nations surrounding the Arctic ocean (and there is a very limited number of them) are proposing that each one of them exercise sovereignty over activities going on on the ice in their "sector", the boundaries of which are being negotiated between them, but which would all meet at the North pole. This is a huge departure from the Law of the Sea ("LOS") and it is far from clear that the other seafaring nations of the world would recognize such claim on the exercise of sovereign powers (I know for sure the Chinese will never agree to this). There is also a process in place and currently being followed by all interested parties for the determination of the extent of each bordering nation's contiguous continental shelf as such shelf's sea based resources belong to the nation whose shelf is contiguous.

As for Canadian sovereignty on our land territory up there, Colin, with the exception of the little fracas with Denmark over Hans Island, NOBODY is contesting our sovereignty or our land borders. This means that they also recognize our twelve nautical miles territorial sea and our 200 nautical miles exclusive economic zone. The exact angle and shape of these territorial waters and economic zone, at their ends where we meet with American claims and Danish ones are not set but subject of ongoing discussions.

Now, the closest point between Russia's and Canada's land masses are 1200 Km apart, and permanently ice covered. So the Russian hordes are not about to come across the Arctic, at five Km/h on ten to fifteen big, hard to maneuver icebreakers each carrying a single platoon of soldiers. Our CF-18 would dispose of the lot in a few minutes, with days if not weeks to prepare the assault and deploy to execute it.

As for "heavily armed" vessels getting on our Canadian side of the ocean, as Lumber pointed out, there are no icebreakers so armed in the world so it would have to be regular surface warships coming in either from the Bering straight in the West or the Labrador sea in the East. If they can go (because there is no ice) then so can we with our own heavily armed warships. Moreover, we, and nobody else, have military capable airfields up there so we can mount attacks on other nation's "heavies".

You may have noticed that I did not talk about sovereignty of waters between the Islands of the Canadian archipelago yet. That is the real crux of the matter, actually, and is subject to a dispute between us and the "major" ally you did not name: the Americans.

A quick lesson in LOS for all here: there are four "type" of waters defined under international LOS:

1- International waters: everything not otherwise internal or territorial. Basically, all seas and oceans when more than 12 nautical miles from land. In these waters, there are no national claims to the application of one's laws to someone else (we'll see the EEZ exception later), and ships are free to use these waters as they see fit and of putting themselves under the protection of whichever country they want that will accept them.

2- Territorial waters: waters contiguous to a country, extending from the limits of the nation's internal waters (usually the low tide mark) to twelve miles out. In these waters, the contiguous state can impose its laws on all ships found within these waters, with the exception that, in peace time, it cannot deny the right to innocent passage to  merchant ship's of another nation but may make it conditional on requesting permission to transit through, and can only close these waters to them under special circumstances, However, warships of another nation cannot enter these waters at all without the permission of the nation whose waters these are.

3- Internal waters: Thes are the waters found between the low and high water mark of the shore, the harbours, ports, bays and other similar enclosed waters of a country. The country whose waters these are can do as it pleases with them, even denying access to them to anyone on whim. Obviously that states laws apply in these waters without any restrictions. Where bays are concerned, there is a formula whereby basically, a bay that is "deeper" than it is "wide" at its entrance can be enclosed by drawing a straight line at the mouth and all waters inside it  are internal, and the 12 Nm territorial sea extends from those straight lines.

4- Of course, without changing the designation of Territorial or international waters, a nation can claim in the seas contiguous to its coasts an Exclusive economic zone up to 200 Nautical miles out from its internal waters. This only gives them the power to regulate economic activities in that zone.

There is also an animal called "international straight" which is a narrow passage which may be bordered on each side by different countries or by the same country and may be comprised of international or territorial sea, and which links two bodies of international waters or of different nation's territorial seas (think Juan de Fuca straight for instance). The difference between an International Straight and ordinary territorial waters of a country is that even though these are "territorial" by definition, there are no circumstances under which the right of innocent passage can be denied and this right of innocent passage includes innocent passage (all weapons in "harbour" position and unloaded/submarines surfaced only) by any nation's warships and this right entails that no permission to transit can be required.

And this is where we (and the Russians as regards their own "North-East" passage BTW) are at odds with the Americans.

The USA recognizes our claim to the lands we claim as our own up in the Arctic; they recognize our claim to our "12 NM" territorial sea up there and the attendant 200 NM EEZ, but not from where we calculate it. What they don't recognize is the fact that we have elected, unilaterally and without supporting LOS or international recognition of such method, to draw "straight lines" (like the ones used in LOS for bays and fiords, as described above) not at the entrance of bays but at the entrance of every straight or passage found between the islands and calling all enclosed waters therein "internal" under LOS, in effect making like the whole archipelago is a single land mass belonging to Canada, and calculating our 12 and 200 NM zones accordingly.

The USA is quite willing to recognize 12 nm territorial seas around every island we have up here and 200 nm around these same islands for EEZ (which in effect is just about the same as under our claim since there are no points where the islands are more than 400 nm away from one another), but not our straight lines making larger internal waters than anywhere else in the world. Moreover, because they see the North-West passage (and the "Russian" North-East passage too) as International Straight as it links two international bodies of water: the Beaufort sea and the Labrador sea). Thus they claim aright to innocent passage without permission, even for their warships.

Are we going to fight with them on on that, when we are the only ones in the world to make such claim in LOS? Or are we going to resolve it between us, knowing that nobody else is really interested in the security of these waters. After all, even for their own security, the American don't want to see everybody and their dog's warships up there, so will certainly be amenable to finding a solution that accommodate everyone.       
 
Colin P said:
You have to start making a lot more compromises when dealing with multi-year ice of any thickness. We had one of our CCG ice breakers (Camsull) sliced open by a growler.

Really ??? The Coast Guard considered Camsull an Icebreaker ! I thought she was just a buoy tender with a reinforced hull.
 
Lumber said:
Oh I have my doubts. For example, I've heard the 25mm on the Harries won't have a cupola to protect them from the elements. I'm sure the Finish fisherman or Russian SigInt vessels will be very intimidated when HMCS Margaret Brooke can't even train her guns on them.

Also, they are only ice "hardened" meaning they will only be capable of handling first year ice. I can just see the headlines now:

"New RCN 'Arctic' vessels spending most of their time outside the 'Arctic'"

"New RCN 'Ice Breaker' damaged in collision with Ice!"

"HMCS Max Bernays stuck in the ice...again!"

The drawings that I saw of the gun has an enclosed cupola.
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
Really ??? The Coast Guard considered Camsull an Icebreaker ! I thought she was just a buoy tender with a reinforced hull.

Almost all the bouy tenders are/were ice breakers, the Camsell was part of an evolution of designs that lead to the 1100 boats built in the 80s.

 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
Are we going to fight with them on on that, when we are the only ones in the world to make such claim in LOS?

This is not entirely true.  Many countries go by the straight baseline theory.  North Korea, Lybia, Russia, Japan etc...  Basically if you have a large bay type area then you usually cleave to the straight baselines (like Hudson Bay).  The main claim to Canada's Arctic is based upon the archipelago concept that in the LotS if you are an archipelagic nation (Phillipines) you can draw straight baselines around your outer islands and call the inside territorial waters.  Canada though a continental country is claiming this same rule applies to us.

There are plenty of things in the baseline rules that are arguable and not clear, hence the interpretation of straight baselines.  The only reason that the US doesn't respect straight baselines is that they don't have any reason where that would be an advantage to them and their waters.

Canada has plenty of evidence and support from many other countries that our interpretation is correct.  It's hardly unilateral or illegal.  It hasn't been tested in any type of court either.  There's a reason that RCN ships who were in the Med during the Regan years didn't go into the Gulf of Sirte claimed by Lybia, while the US just sailed right up to the 12 mile limit.  It's all about straight baselines.
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
Really ??? The Coast Guard considered Camsull an Icebreaker ! I thought she was just a buoy tender with a reinforced hull.

The Pearkes is considered Arctic class 2, it not bad considering what others ships are, the Russians I think are the only ones with a Arctic class 6 or higher.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/tp-tp13670-tables-2154.htm

Do you think the Chinese will return? Xuě Lóng unexpectedly arrived in 1999 at the small Canadian coastal village of Tuktoyaktuk, on the Arctic Ocean.[16][17][18]

The inability of the Canadian authorities to track the vessel stirred enough controversy that the incident is still being cited as evidence of Canadian unpreparedness to defend its northern sovereignty
(wiki)
 
Underway said:
This is not entirely true.  Many countries go by the straight baseline theory.  North Korea, Lybia, Russia, Japan etc...  Basically if you have a large bay type area then you usually cleave to the straight baselines (like Hudson Bay).  The main claim to Canada's Arctic is based upon the archipelago concept that in the LotS if you are an archipelagic nation (Phillipines) you can draw straight baselines around your outer islands and call the inside territorial waters.  Canada though a continental country is claiming this same rule applies to us.

There are plenty of things in the baseline rules that are arguable and not clear, hence the interpretation of straight baselines.  The only reason that the US doesn't respect straight baselines is that they don't have any reason where that would be an advantage to them and their waters.

Canada has plenty of evidence and support from many other countries that our interpretation is correct.  It's hardly unilateral or illegal.  It hasn't been tested in any type of court either.  There's a reason that RCN ships who were in the Med during the Regan years didn't go into the Gulf of Sirte claimed by Lybia, while the US just sailed right up to the 12 mile limit.  It's all about straight baselines.

Underway:

Re-read my post carefully.

You will see that I do talk about baselines as a method, and I am not claiming that Canada is the only one using the method as it exists (we have many bays where we do).

You may note that under the current system, the use of baseline at the entrances of bays and fiords (not archipelagoes - not included in international LOS) creates areas of internal waters for a nation, not territorial sea, which is then calculated from the baseline out to sea.

Now, I did not want to go into this detail in my post because that was not Canada's claim for the Arctic archipelago (though it is for the Philippines), but there is in the UNCLOS (United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea) a further defined "type" of waters area: The Archipelagic waters.

The Archipelagic waters apply to (and only to) states that are entirely composed of one or more archipelago (hence the Philippines). Those countries are allowed, after using the straight baselines to define their internal waters (bays, harbours, etc. like everybody else), to create a second set of baselines joining their main islands (there is a whole set of definitions) enclosing their archipelago. Those "Archipelagic Waters" then become territorial waters with exceptions to the rules pertaining thereto (i.e the country cannot deny the right to peaceful passage if they constitute an international straight otherwise), from which the "actual;" territorial waters can then be measured out to sea for 12NM and 200 NM EEZ).

So Canada is not covered by this rule (we are not "entirely" comprised of an Archipelago - we only happen to have one on one side of the country). On top of that, Canada's claim in the Arctic is that we can use these straight lines like the ones for harbours and bays and create internal waters - not territorial (the basic argument being that, since they are ice covered most of the year, and at that point used like land by the natives, they are "land" territory of Canada and thus, when melted, internal waters of Canada). In that regard, we are the only ones making such claim in the world.
 
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