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Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

Oldgateboatdriver

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Colin P said:
The Pearkes is considered Arctic class 2, it not bad considering what others ships are, the Russians I think are the only ones with a Arctic class 6 or higher.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/tp-tp13670-tables-2154.htm

Do you think the Chinese will return? Xuě Lóng unexpectedly arrived in 1999 at the small Canadian coastal village of Tuktoyaktuk, on the Arctic Ocean.[16][17][18]

The inability of the Canadian authorities to track the vessel stirred enough controversy that the incident is still being cited as evidence of Canadian unpreparedness to defend its northern sovereignty
(wiki)

Aren't the AOPS supposed to be Arctic class 3? That would make them more amenable to ops up there than the Pearkes and her likes.

On the other hand, I am pretty confident that the Chinese will be back in the Arctic. They are building icebreakers for research right now. And BTW, the nature of oceanic surveillance is such that a ship could arrive unexpectedly in San Fransisco, or Halifax, even Quebec City today or the day after. These things are not  perfect. That Chinese ship in Tuk had to go through the Bering straight and through the Beaufort sea under the nose of the Americans too.

In view of the potential natural resources up in the Arctic ocean and under it, the Chinese cannot afford to admit other nations' claims of sovereignty over the actual Arctic ocean and deprive themselves of potential exploitation (particularly fishing) if these waters become navigable. So I have no doubt they will be back up there again.

That is why the largest part of the Arctic program of DND is oriented towards detection, with the Arctic surveillance network at its heart. Moreover, since 1999, we (Canada) have put Radarsat 2 in orbit. While it is a commercial endeavour of the Space Agency, the ops centre has a permanent RCAF cell to use it for surveillance of the territory, and particularly the Arctic (and to vet "commercial" requests to make sure we are not asked to provide "intelligence" to foreign nations or belligerents).
 

Kirkhill

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Oldgateboatdriver said:
Aren't the AOPS supposed to be Arctic class 3? That would make them more amenable to ops up there than the Pearkes and her likes.

AFAIK - the AOPS is being built to IMO Polar Class 5 standards with a Polar Class 4 bow resulting in a PC5+ standard with the concept of operations being that she will operate in "navigable" waters as opposed to creating navigable waters.

http://www.dal.ca/content/dam/dalhousie/pdf/cfps/Events/Soule_AOPS_CFPS_Sep11.pdf
http://www.dal.ca/content/dam/dalhousie/pdf/cfps/nsps/Sangster%20-%20AOPS.pdf

I don't get the sense that she will be creating channels through the ice.  Rather she is to follow the edge of the ice, staying in navigable waters but pushing into the slob as far as her hull will let her.  The idea seems to be that she will stay on station longer and closer than civilian (or even naval) vessels and control access to the ice.

Cutting channels and rescuing stuck ships, including stuck AOPS vessels seems to be reserved for the Coast Guard.  Every packet needs a wrecker.
 

Stoker

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Oldgateboatdriver said:
Aren't the AOPS supposed to be Arctic class 3? That would make them more amenable to ops up there than the Pearkes and her likes.

On the other hand, I am pretty confident that the Chinese will be back in the Arctic. They are building icebreakers for research right now. And BTW, the nature of oceanic surveillance is such that a ship could arrive unexpectedly in San Fransisco, or Halifax, even Quebec City today or the day after. These things are not  perfect. That Chinese ship in Tuk had to go through the Bering straight and through the Beaufort sea under the nose of the Americans too.

In view of the potential natural resources up in the Arctic ocean and under it, the Chinese cannot afford to admit other nations' claims of sovereignty over the actual Arctic ocean and deprive themselves of potential exploitation (particularly fishing) if these waters become navigable. So I have no doubt they will be back up there again.

That is why the largest part of the Arctic program of DND is oriented towards detection, with the Arctic surveillance network at its heart. Moreover, since 1999, we (Canada) have put Radarsat 2 in orbit. While it is a commercial endeavour of the Space Agency, the ops centre has a permanent RCAF cell to use it for surveillance of the territory, and particularly the Arctic (and to vet "commercial" requests to make sure we are not asked to provide "intelligence" to foreign nations or belligerents).

According to the presentation I saw in the formation about AOPS, its Polar Class 5, able to operate in first year ice up 1 meter at 3kts. We just got back working with DRDC on the Northern watch program. We were laying acoustic arrays across the Northwest Passage, this will eventually be part of a entire network of surveillance equipment in the North.
 

Good2Golf

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So AOPS PC5/4/5+/etc..., Dief PC2, CPF PC(nil), MCDV PC7(6?) -- will CSC have any rating, or can it be opened up like a tuna can like the CPFs?

G2G
 

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http://www.dal.ca/content/dam/dalhousie/pdf/cfps/nsps/Lerhe%20-%20CSC%20SOR.pdf

According to the above - the CSC is supposed to have the same Arctic capabilities as the current FF/DDs (5kts in brash ice + accretion limits).

Slide 29 (Platform)

 

Kirkhill

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http://www.aspistrategist.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/OMT-Dansh-Frigate-Programme-April-2014.pdf

According to page 4 of the above the Absalon and Huitfeldts are built to DNV (Det Norske Veritas) Ice Class C

https://rules.dnvgl.com/docs/pdf/DNV/rulesship/2005-07/ts501.pdf

See Section 2

Basically a strengthened bow with plates up to 25 mm thick to permit service in waters with light ice concentrations.

The other ships of the Danish navy are the Thetis class frigates and the Rasmussen class OPVs.

Thetis are good to 80 cm

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/thetis/

Rasmussens are good to 40 cm with 70 cm inclusions

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/knud-rasmussen-class/
 

Colin Parkinson

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Icebreakers are also classed by ocean vs river, a ocean version needs a allround strong hull to avoid being crushed in the ice when trapped, a river class has most of it's strength in a longitudinal plane.

the US also does not agree with our baseline definition on the west coast between Cape St James and Cape Scott.

Detection is good and important, but very typical will be a Canadian approach that we can detect, but not do much about it. "Canada, fitted for, but not with sovereignty"  8) 
 

Oldgateboatdriver

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Colin P said:
Icebreakers are also classed by ocean vs river, a ocean version needs a allround strong hull to avoid being crushed in the ice when trapped, a river class has most of it's strength in a longitudinal plane.

the US also does not agree with our baseline definition on the west coast between Cape St James and Cape Scott.

Detection is good and important, but very typical will be a Canadian approach that we can detect, but not do much about it. "Canada, fitted for, but not with sovereignty"  8)

As I keep reminding you, Colin, enforcement up there is (or ought to be) with CF-18s with white ones under the wings. I mean, other than debarked infantry, why would you want to fight with things that go only 5 Km/h? If someone wants to send "turtles" up there, why should I fight them with my own turtle when I have access to a Chimpanzee (no offence meant Supersonicmax and Co.  ;D) carrying a hammer? 
 

Underway

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Oldgateboatdriver said:
That is why the largest part of the Arctic program of DND is oriented towards detection, with the Arctic surveillance network at its heart. Moreover, since 1999, we (Canada) have put Radarsat 2 in orbit. While it is a commercial endeavour of the Space Agency, the ops centre has a permanent RCAF cell to use it for surveillance of the territory, and particularly the Arctic (and to vet "commercial" requests to make sure we are not asked to provide "intelligence" to foreign nations or belligerents).

There is also the fact that NORAD is integrated into continental maritime defence now as well (since 9/11).  All ships are supposed to report their approach to NA waters at least 24 hrs in advance if not longer (I can't recall, long time since I was at Trinity).  "Honest" sailors and those who want to appear to be honest will report.  Naval Intel is supposed to give good info on who's who in the zoo and most ships are equipped with tech that ID's them to our tracking system by international maritime law (like aircraft).

This doesn't stop a foreign power who wants to stay off the grid, but it does do a lot for tracking of civilian traffic.  This helps sort through the clutter and narrow down on those not reporting so we can take a look at them.  If someone just shows up in the Arctic without telling us they better have a good explanation as the US will be looking over our shoulder at them as well.  Combined with acoustic sensors, and radar stations at critical points of the NWP I'm pretty confident that we will know for the most part who's on the water.  What they are doing will be up to AOPS taking a look see along with the RCAF.
 

Colin Parkinson

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because I don't believe the 'chimpanzee" (sorry max) will be allowed to drop anything (well maybe a strongly worded letter). At the end of the day we are going to need more presence up there and my belief is to make that presence very robust, because I suspect it will be a whole bunch of bluffing and gunboat diplomacy. When you opponent knows you can back up the tough talk with action, very likely they will back off in such a confrontation. A robust ship backed up by our RCAF is the best option.   
 

Good2Golf

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So we mod AOPS with VLS?  Paint Dief grey and arm Her?

If you're not going to let Max and Co. use weapons, why would, as OGBD queried, slow grey turtles be sent in harm's way? ???

Regards
G2G 

 
J

jollyjacktar

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I don't have all the or for that matter any of the answers, but, personally I would feel better if the AOPS had more than a pop gun for main armament. 
 

Good2Golf

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Marinized GAU-8! :nod:

If it works for the Dutch, Chileans and Peruvians...
 

Colin Parkinson

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Good2Golf said:
So we mod AOPS with VLS?  Paint Dief grey and arm Her?

If you're not going to let Max and Co. use weapons, why would, as OGBD queried, slow grey turtles be sent in harm's way? ???

Regards
G2G

I suspect that a ship patrolling in our waters confronting another ship will be more palatable than sending a fighter to threaten bombing one to our politicians. Plus if your opponent does not leave immediately and it becomes a "battle of will", what is the loiter time of a CF-18 up there, can we establish a continuous coverage with CF-18 over a particular area for 48hrs or more?

It could be a variation of this (Codwar) 
codwar1.jpg

 

Underway

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Colin P said:
I suspect that a ship patrolling in our waters confronting another ship will be more palatable than sending a fighter to threaten bombing one to our politicians. Plus if your opponent does not leave immediately and it becomes a "battle of will", what is the loiter time of a CF-18 up there, can we establish a continuous coverage with CF-18 over a particular area for 48hrs or more?

It could be a variation of this (Codwar) 
codwar1.jpg

I'm quite sure if it comes to ramming AOPS will be better than most other ships out there.
 

The Bread Guy

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Chief Stoker said:
Ship named after 100-year-old Sask war hero

Saskatchewan nurse Margaret Brooke was aboard the SS Caribou when it was torpedoed off the coast of Newfoundland on Oct. 13, 1942.

Brooke’s heroic actions in the aftermath of the ship’s sinking earned her the Order of the British Empire, making her the only Canadian nurse to receive such an honour during the Second World War.

Now Brooke, who turned 100 years old Saturday, is being honoured again. The federal government announced a Canadian Arctic patrol ship will bear her name. Construction of the HMCS Margaret Brooke is set to begin in the fall.

The Royal Canadian Navy will employ the patrol ship to conduct sovereignty and surveillance operations in Canadian waters on all three coasts, including in the Arctic, according to a federal government news release ...
R.I.P. Lt-Cdr (ret'd) Brooke:salute:
Vice-Admiral Mark Norman, Commander of the Royal Canadian Navy, issued the following statement on the passing of naval hero Lieutenant Commander (ret’d) Margaret Brooke, MBE, PhD:

    “On behalf of the entire Royal Canadian Navy and the Canadian Armed Forces, my deepest condolences are extended to the family and friends of Lieutenant-Commander (ret’d) Margaret Brooke, who passed away peacefully on January 9, 2016, at the age of 100, surrounded by loved ones in Victoria, British Columbia.

    “LCdr Brooke was a true Canadian naval hero. A Royal Canadian Navy Nursing Sister during the Second World War, then-Sub-Lieutenant Brooke was named a Member (Military Division) of the Order of the British Empire for her valiant actions following the torpedoing and subsequent sinking of the ferry SS Caribou on October 14, 1942, in the Cabot Strait off Newfoundland. Fighting for her own survival, she attempted to save the life of her colleague and friend, Nursing Sister Sub-Lieutenant Agnes Wilkie, by holding on to her with one arm, while clinging to ropes on a capsized lifeboat. Despite LCdr Brooke’s heroic efforts, her friend succumbed to the frigid water. LCdr Brooke continued to serve in the RCN until her retirement in 1962, at which point she went on to a successful civilian career in academia, achieving her PhD in paleontology.

    “The Royal Canadian Navy was extremely pleased to acknowledge Margaret Brooke’s great legacy with the announcement in April 2015 that one of the upcoming Arctic and Offshore Patrol Ships would be named Her Majesty’s Canadian Ship (HMCS) Margaret Brooke in her honour. Members of the RCN had the great fortune to visit LCdr Brooke and her family at the time of the announcement, which was also on the occasion of her 100th birthday. It was a wonderful opportunity to thank LCdr Brooke for her 20 years of military service to Canada, and for her heroism so many years ago.”
More from the Minister of Defence:
The Honourable Harjit Sajjan, Minister of National Defence, issued the following statement on the passing of naval hero Lieutenant Commander (ret’d) Margaret Brooke, MBE, PhD:

    “The Government of Canada wishes to extend its sincere condolences to the family and friends of Lieutenant-Commander (ret’d) Margaret Brooke, a true Canadian hero who passed away peacefully on January 9, 2016, at the age of 100, surrounded by loved ones in Victoria, British Columbia.

    “The story of Margaret Brooke is one of courage and self-sacrifice. As a young Nursing Sister in the Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) during the Second World War, then-Sub-Lieutenant Brooke was on the ferry SS Caribou on October 14, 1942 when it was attacked by German submarine U-69. The ferry sank in just five minutes. LCdr Brooke fought valiantly to save her friend and colleague, Nursing Sister Sub-Lieutenant Agnes Wilkie, by holding on to her while clinging to ropes on a capsized lifeboat. Tragically, Agnes Wilkie succumbed to the frigid water. LCdr Brooke was named a Member (Military Divison) of the Order of the British Empire for her heroism and remained an officer in the RCN for 20 years, retiring in 1962 and going on to a successful civilian career in academia.

    “In April of 2015, the Government of Canada announced that the courage of Margaret Brooke was to be marked in a very significant way – one of Canada’s upcoming Arctic and Offshore Patrol Ships would be named Her Majesty’s Canadian Ship Margaret Brooke in her honour. This was a unique opportunity to name a naval vessel after a living Canadian woman for the first time ever, and members of the RCN had the privilege of visiting her on the occasion of her 100th birthday to commemorate the news, and to thank LCdr Brooke in person for her inspirational service to Canada.”
 

Colin Parkinson

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The AOP's might be busy http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/china-reveals-plans-to-ship-cargo-across-canada%E2%80%99s-northwest-passage/ar-BBs1JqU?li=AAggv0m&ocid=U206DHP
 
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