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Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

Well I was just using CQ-9B as an example of an external asset that can provide targeting information.

I was about to post that CQ-9B's don't carry that kind of ranged anti-ship missiles (as late as of 2023) but then I remembered RIMPAC this last year.


Brand new capability that was tested.

I don't think its on the systems to be integrated into the CQ-9 Guardian though. Not sure if that would be a software or hardward (or both) upgrade.
I'm a big LRASM fan, wish there was a surface rail launched version instead of vertical launch.

How many targets is the CQ-9B seeing? How much loiter time does it have? Is it better to leave the wings empty and keep it in the air longer?

I am going to stick with the SM-6 (AIM/RIM 174). Currently that missile can be launched from an RCAF aircraft, an RCN ship or an RRCA container. In all instances it can be launched and vectored through the Co-Operative Engagement Capability. The host platform may or may not be involved in the firing solution.

So, to my mind, the question becomes, how many missiles are within range of the targets? And how many can be replenished rapidly?

Ships and subs can carry missiles forward to engage enemy in the approaches early. But they have relatively small magazine capacities and can take weeks to reload.

Aircraft can carry missiles forward at speed but are range limited and may be restricted by weather.

Ground Based Launchers permit large numbers of missiles to be prepositioned for ready use - but those concentrations will require security and air defence. But they can be relocated.

It seems to me that a useful strategy is to be able to launch that singular missile from as many platforms as possible so that the enemy can't be sure where he is going to be hit from.

And with the SM6 having SAM/SSM capabilities and very long ranges, and demonstrated platform independence it appears to me as if it would be a useful basis on which to build a defence.
 
If I were to design an AOPS anti shipping package I would look at something like a deck launched RBS 15 Mk IV. Anything that extends the range as far as possible. So you can hit them well away from their own salvo range or detection range.
I would guess Naval Strike Missile or Harpoon would be fitted given the future/current adoption of those systems vs an entirely new procurement of a foreign missile system. NSM is very light as well which makes it fairly easy to fit aboard in an ad hoc manner, albeit with a fair bit less range than something like RBS-15 Mark IV.

What about shore batteries (Guns and/or Missiles) to help bolster our Artic defence ?

You could even do some remote, no ?
Given the general ranges involved, guns are likely not a realistic option. Mobile coastal missile batteries are possible although the logistics of those systems are going to be somewhat questionable. You'll need to get these systems to the North somehow, meaning they will either need to be airlifted or sealifted. They cannot rapidly deploy like aviation can during a crisis, so you'd need to accept that delay or forward base them somewhere there isn't currently infrastructure for them. There is serious issues with forward basing such systems in these remote areas and continually maintaining them in a state of readiness.

These batteries aren't just concentrated on one vehicle as well, looking at Poland's NSM battery and it has:

  • 1x command vehicle
  • 3x launch vehicles
  • 1x communications vehicle
  • 1x radar vehicle

This battery is all wheeled truck mounted and provides you a 12 missile salvo, I'd imagine you'd have issues with traditional trucks in the Arctic alongside needing serious winterization to be able to operate vehicles for any amount of time there. NSM is a relatively small missile as well, the larger you get and the more issues are caused due to larger vehicles. You still need security and support forces as well in addition to the force listed above.

Russian batteries for the Bastion P system are larger and are composed of the following:

  • 4x launch vehicles
  • 1x or 2x command vehicles
  • 1x radar vehicle
  • 4x missile reload vehicles

This is more of a comparable mobile battery to what Canada would need, these can operate in Arctic territories like Kotelny Island where Bastion P had been previously located. These vehicles are all far larger than their Polish counterparts and would pose a lot of issues to move around the Arctic effectively.

Well I was just using CQ-9B as an example of an external asset that can provide targeting information.

I was about to post that CQ-9B's don't carry that kind of ranged anti-ship missiles (as late as of 2023) but then I remembered RIMPAC this last year.


Brand new capability that was tested.

I don't think its on the systems to be integrated into the CQ-9 Guardian though. Not sure if that would be a software or hardward (or both) upgrade.
I'm a big LRASM fan, wish there was a surface rail launched version instead of vertical launch.
Guardian has 9 total hardpoints and can carry up to 2,155kg of ordnance however, that is also considering any pods or other items it has to carry for its missions regardless. Brimstone missiles and Paveway IV LGB's are already integrated into the system but such a limited payload weight hurts what weaponry can be employed. Joint Strike Missile (air launched NSM development) is 416kg, LRASM is 1,250kg, AIM-174B is 860kg, etc. There is also pylon weight limitations and flight stability to take into concerns, alongside the fact Guardian is a huge lumbering target for anybody to blast out of the sky, it is a poor strike platform.

Meanwhile the USCG is doing what it can to get some more ice breaking capability. Personally we should offer to build them a naval AOP's, with no design changes, other than the ordering of longer lead items, I suspect it could be built without impacting the River Class schedule.

Given how absolutely vital the River class vessels are and the fact we are scheduled to begin full rate production next year, I only view trying to squeeze another AOPS out of Irving as something troublesome. Irving needs to transition their supply chains, infrastructure and work force towards the River class program, the Americans are big boys and can go elsewhere to not ruin our shipbuilding program. They would also need to get legal exemptions as far as I know to order a vessel to be build by Canadian yards.
 
The thing about AOPS is that in order to engage an enemy, you need a "sense" and "strike" capability.

I question adding some form of Strike capability without a proper SENSE capability.

I cannot speak for the equipment on AOPS, I've not been aboard one nor have I seen their OPS gear, but from the OS info I've seen, they basically have slightly better than Nav Radar capability. I don't think they have Link, and there's certainly no fire control radar system aboard.

Having some form of optically guided bolt-on system might work, but that provides only a limited sense capability, so the strike is also very limited.

CIWS could be bolted on (somewhere/somehow) maybe and that would provide an integral search/shoot capability in terms of self defense.

Tossing a gun on the deck with no ability to aim it is almost useless.

Putting a missile system aboard with no matching fire control system is also pointless.
 
The thing about AOPS is that in order to engage an enemy, you need a "sense" and "strike" capability.

I question adding some form of Strike capability without a proper SENSE capability.
It would have to be offboard sense for anti-ship. Which is what all anti-ship is these days. No one is lobbing missiles at each other within visual! Basically how the Ukranians killed the Moskiva.

All other weapon systems would have to have their own sense (like the CIWS you mentioned). So I completely agree with those challenges.
 
I am going to stick with the SM-6 (AIM/RIM 174). Currently that missile can be launched from an RCAF aircraft, an RCN ship or an RRCA container.
which RCAF aircraft are you thinking of? The USN has them on their Super Hornets not the legacy models we're flying.
 
It would have to be offboard sense for anti-ship. Which is what all anti-ship is these days. No one is lobbing missiles at each other within visual! Basically how the Ukranians killed the Moskiva.

All other weapon systems would have to have their own sense (like the CIWS you mentioned). So I completely agree with those challenges.
If you have offboard sense, why not have offboard attack as well, and simply use the AOPs for their intended, non-combat purpose instead of putting them at risk?

Things like satellite coverage, sensors arrays, some air assets and some missile batteries would all be way cheaper.
 
If you have offboard sense, why not have offboard attack as well, and simply use the AOPs for their intended, non-combat purpose instead of putting them at risk?

Things like satellite coverage, sensors arrays, some air assets and some missile batteries would all be way cheaper.
Completely agree, but sometimes you just need hulls (see armed yachts). And were just talking how you would do it, not that you should do it.
 
Completely agree, but sometimes you just need hulls (see armed yachts). And were just talking how you would do it, not that you should do it.
Fair points, just wish this idea would go away. Now we'll get to listen to weeks on social medias about dinosaurs complaining about the AOPs pop gun, unless someone posts a picture of a ship with rust on it.
 
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