Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

[Rainbow1910]

How about just moving a couple of AOPS into the USCG patrol areas and bring US Coasties aboard? It seems to be a workable plan for USN nuclear subs. And the RCN already seems to work with the USCG in Op Caribbe. Then start building new ships in the existing hall a Halifax and build a new RCD hall.

Fundamentally the entire NSS has built the yards for our domestic use and we need to fulfill our own requirements before we start worrying about relatively small batch orders that may or may not come in from abroad. Building an entirely new RCD hall while doing….USCG orders? With the existing hall that’s transitioning into RCD production makes no sense.

 

[Underway]

Honestly, there isn't any spare capacity anywhere (maybe Davie but I doubt it, they are trying to modernize as well). There are no facilities, no workers, no time.

We're running as fast as we can to fill RCN orders and CCG orders, as well as keep the ships we have floating. Calgary just finished a TWO YEAR overhaul. TWO FRIGGIN YEARS! Just taking up space and getting stuff fixed.

 

[Halifax Tar]

To be fair, he has to stay on DND messaging and one of his interview goals was to talk up Canada's ability to support the navy, NSS and the military in general. I think he prepared well for the interview, did very little baffle gabbing and very little waffling.

I thought he sounded really good. He sounds like a CDS IMHO.

But I am biased. I like Angus. I'd sail with him again.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I thought he sounded really good. He sounds like a CDS IMHO.

But I am biased. I like Angus. I'd sail with him again.

I have many a sea mile with Angus….

 

[YZT580]

Honestly, there isn't any spare capacity anywhere (maybe Davie but I doubt it, they are trying to modernize as well). There are no facilities, no workers, no time.

We're running as fast as we can to fill RCN orders and CCG orders, as well as keep the ships we have floating. Calgary just finished a TWO YEAR overhaul. TWO FRIGGIN YEARS! Just taking up space and getting stuff fixed.

are there no other yards in Canada that could be contracted by Irving? Seems kinda useless to have spent all that money to develop an industry that is confined in house

 

[Kirkhill]

Fundamentally the entire NSS has built the yards for our domestic use and we need to fulfill our own requirements before we start worrying about relatively small batch orders that may or may not come in from abroad. Building an entirely new RCD hall while doing….USCG orders? With the existing hall that’s transitioning into RCD production makes no sense.

Honestly, there isn't any spare capacity anywhere (maybe Davie but I doubt it, they are trying to modernize as well). There are no facilities, no workers, no time.

We're running as fast as we can to fill RCN orders and CCG orders, as well as keep the ships we have floating. Calgary just finished a TWO YEAR overhaul. TWO FRIGGIN YEARS! Just taking up space and getting stuff fixed.

are there no other yards in Canada that could be contracted by Irving? Seems kinda useless to have spent all that money to develop an industry that is confined in house

What if the USCG really likes the AOPS and decides to buy the design for construction in a New England or Michigan yard? What do you reckon an Irving welder would be worth to them?

 

[Dana381]

are there no other yards in Canada that could be contracted by Irving? Seems kinda useless to have spent all that money to develop an industry that is confined in house

When the NSS was first announced there was talk of Irving using the Georgetown PEI yard to make subassemblies. Apparently the province bought the yard, I'm not sure if they did anything with it.

 

[Stoker]

When the NSS was first announced there was talk of Irving using the Georgetown PEI yard to make subassemblies. Apparently the province bought the yard, I'm not sure if they did anything with it.

Interesting that where major components of the Kingston Class were built.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I have many a sea mile with Angus….

I was only on on TOR with him for a couple years while he was XO.

 

[Furniture]

When the NSS was first announced there was talk of Irving using the Georgetown PEI yard to make subassemblies. Apparently the province bought the yard, I'm not sure if they did anything with it.

My understanding is that PEI is trying to use Georgetown as a cargo port, since all cargo essentially comes to and from PEI by truck these days.

 

[GK .Dundas]

What about an outright purchase that helps to grease the wheels of some other procurement or a form of diplomatic detente? Before the RCD’s come onboard and with the CPF’s being used increasingly sparingly, we could be a useful part of multinational task forces as suppliers and force enablers.

Rainier and her sisters were designed with the Midways and the Forrestal's in mind.
They had enough fuel and ammo plus food etc to to do two - three complete unreps for the carrier and her escorts.
Picture her dealing with a Canadian TG you could support a operation for months all away around the world.
And given her 26 knot speed you could get from point A to B .

 

[Furniture]

Rainier and her sisters were designed with the Midways and the Forrestal's in mind.
They had enough fuel and ammo plus food etc to to do two - three complete unreps for the carrier and her escorts.
Picture her dealing with a Canadian TG you could support a operation for months all away around the world.
And given her 26 knot speed you could get from point A to B .

You need to consider how much fuel the ship burns to do that, and how many crew it needs.

An AOR that makes sailing more expensive, and more crew intensive than just stopping in a friendly port isn't much of a bonus. There is a reason the USN stopped using their fast tankers...

 

[dapaterson]

You need to consider how much fuel the ship burns to do that, and how many crew it needs.

An AOR that makes sailing more expensive, and more crew intensive than just stopping in a friendly port isn't much of a bonus. There is a reason the USN stopped using their fast tankers...

A military run by MBAs does not survive long. Sustainment is inherently wasteful, if properly designed, because of the tremendous variability in military engagements.

Having "almost enough" fuel and ammunition is synonymous with having not enough.

 

[Furniture]

A military run by MBAs does not survive long. Sustainment is inherently wasteful, if properly designed, because of the tremendous variability in military engagements.

Having "almost enough" fuel and ammunition is synonymous with having not enough.

True, but there is a difference between what we need, and 26+KT tankers for fueling carriers.

We need AORs, what we don't need are AORs that are a logistical burden in and of themselves.

 

[Dana381]

Interesting that where major components of the Kingston Class were built.
View attachment 94467

At the time I was working with a welding inspector who was teaching classes at Holland College. He claimed there was a lot of buzz around it. Holland college was planning more welding courses and there was hope the East Isle shipyard would get module work like it did before. Irving still owned it then so no reason to not believe it would happen. He was especially interested because he was hoping to get a full time teaching job.

 

[Stoker]

At the time I was working with a welding inspector who was teaching classes at Holland College. He claimed there was a lot of buzz around it. Holland college was planning more welding courses and there was hope the East Isle shipyard would get module work like it did before. Irving still owned it then so no reason to not believe it would happen. He was especially interested because he was hoping to get a full time teaching job.

They built nine of the bow assemblies from frame 26 forward, that included everything internal. Floated them up on a barge several at a time where they were mated to the rest of the ships.

 

[quadrapiper]

What if the USCG really likes the AOPS and decides to buy the design for construction in a New England or Michigan yard? What do you reckon an Irving welder would be worth to them?

Normally that might be a problem. Wonder if hiring foreign welders would fly right now, especially at "pry them away from guaranteed work in their home city" rates.

Wonder if a foreign design would even be considered by Hegseth's ilk, including whoever's running DHS, regardless of how much the USCG might want it.

 

[Kirkhill]

Normally that might be a problem. Wonder if hiring foreign welders would fly right now, especially at "pry them away from guaranteed work in their home city" rates.

Wonder if a foreign design would even be considered by Hegseth's ilk, including whoever's running DHS, regardless of how much the USCG might want it.

On the other hand

President Trump: We're Negotiating With Finland to Buy Icebreakers (Again)

President Trump said nearly the same thing nearly five years ago. This time around, I'm more optimistic that a deal can be done. I'll believe it, though, when money starts changing hands.

sixtydegreesnorth.substack.com

Trump Bill Secures $9 Billion for U.S. Arctic Surge, Six New Icebreakers to Counter Russian and Chinese Dominance

President Trump’s vast tax and spending bill has secured funds the U.S. Coast Guard has been searching for since the early 2010s. The “One Big Beautiful Bill Act” appropriates close to $9 billion for the expansion of the Coast Guard’s Arctic icebreaker fleet.

gcaptain.com

I don't think Trump minds spending money overseas if he gets it back.

Finland has bought a bunch of US kit. Trump may be inclined to swap F35s and HIMARS for Icebreakers. Not to mention sucking up a lot of the workload of holding the Russians at bay.

Maybe he can see value in the AOPS.

 

[Rainbow1910]

There’s no denying that bringing Saint John back online would be difficult and expensive—but dismissing it outright ignores both precedent and future need.

Yes, the infrastructure is mostly gone, and yes, the workforce would need to be rebuilt. But that was exactly the case with Irving pre-NSPS. They modernized the Halifax yard with $350M in upgrades (much of it public money), and Seaspan followed suit out west. Let’s not pretend this is uncharted territory. Saint John already has deepwater access, a legacy of naval construction, and a skilled labour base in the region that could be retrained or re-attracted.

As for cost—sure, it would run in the billions. But so did standing up the current NSPS yards, and we didn’t blink at those numbers when they were deemed strategically necessary. The argument that “Canada can’t support another major yard” assumes a fixed future. That’s flawed thinking. With the River-class Destroyer (RCD) program stretching over decades, the Continental Corvette program being actively studied, Possible military icebreakers, multi-purpose vessels, submarine tenders, support ships, drone tenders, and other potential projects, the demand signal is not shrinking. It’s growing.

Frankly, we think too small in Canada. Any new capability—like a revived Saint John yard—doesn't need to be maxed out year-round to be worth it. It can be used to surge during emergencies, support allied workshare, or even be mothballed in peacetime like strategic airlift or reserve forces. Flexibility has value. Redundancy has value.

As for Davie, let’s be honest they’ve only recently been fully integrated into the NSS, and much of their current push is built on the promise of foreign subcontracting in Finland. That’s fine if you’re running a business, but if you’re running a country that claims to care about sovereignty and economic resilience, you shouldn’t be outsourcing the future of your fleet halfway across the world. Canada needs capacity here.

The real risk isn’t in reviving Saint John—it’s in putting all our eggs in two or three increasingly overloaded baskets, while pretending it’s still 2006 and not a more dangerous, unpredictable world.

There is a difference between Irving pre-NSS and this proposal for Saint John, given that the former had an entire order book promised to them prior to embarking on this journey while the latter has basically nothing. Legacy and a vague "skilled labour base" doesn't mean much to me when we're looking at very substantial investments into a yard that has no work lined up/doesn't line up with the current projected program that does somewhat exist. Given what I've heard and see regarding all of those programs, it does not make much sense to me to dump billions and years into a shipyard on the off chance that we end up getting these various programs which haven't been announced, costed, included in defence strategies, etc. Even the Continental Defence Corvette, the most high profile of anything mentioned here, is in a limbo state where it could disappear into history just as easily as it arrived in the first place. If we even want to discuss such a program of rebuilding a yard, I think it is more relevant to talk about expanding existing yards/making sure NSS participants are utilized before we start from scratch elsewhere.

Davie has yet to finish their yard modernization and meaningfully start their order of 1 Polar Icebreaker and 6 Program Icebreakers for the CCG, I would almost guarantee they are going to be awarded additional contracts to keep them operational into the far future just like Seaspan and Irving years prior. We have Ontario Shipyard (Formerly Heddle) on the Great Lakes that are jocking for NSS participation through Vard's Vigilance who I'd imagine would get expansion/investment prior to dumping a bunch of resources into reviving Saint John. When we start speaking about multi-purpose vessels, support ships, drone tenders, unmanned ships, etc, we are into the domain of small construction projects that the Canadian Govt typically tries to push out across the smaller yards.

I don't think its financially/politically viable or realistic to put all of this funding into a shipyard and then "mothball" or idle it, you will lose effectively all of your trained and qualified staff which is the backbone of your operation. Same with allied workshare, I find that possibility unrealistic in this era of international tensions and increasing domestic procurement programs. Nations are bringing more and more work home to onboard spending, they aren't particularly looking to award work abroad to unproven shipyards. We've seen that Canadian shipbuilders are uncompetitive on the world export market and I do not see that changing anytime soon.

I would love to have some increased shipbuilding, refit and repair capability however, I don't think reviving a long dead shipyard turned wallboard facility is an especially good idea compared to investing more in existing yards. A yard like Ontario Shipyard is fairly well set up to expand and take on a lot of the relatively small procurement programs that could happen in the future, although I'd want to see an actual promise to procure them first obviously.

 

[Rainbow1910]

On the other hand

I don't think Trump minds spending money overseas if he gets it back.

Finland has bought a bunch of US kit. Trump may be inclined to swap F35s and HIMARS for Icebreakers. Not to mention sucking up a lot of the workload of holding the Russians at bay.

Maybe he can see value in the AOPS.

The fundamental issue is that there is nothing that the US Govt can or would provide Canada in exchange for these AOPS that can realistically offset the operational hazards that losing the ships would cause to either the RCN or CCG now and into the future. If the USCG needed these icebreakers so bad, maybe they should have adequately planned for and procured them already? The US would have no sympathy for us if the roles were reversed, and I am not especially inclined to provide any myself.