Armoured Crewman Weapons

[Marty]

AHHHHHHHHHHH the good ol days

 

[Kal]

Something like an HK MP5 or a pistol like the Sig Sauer or Browning 9mm? Going to war with a pistol doesn't seem too cool as mentioned before but the HK MP5 seems to hold a mystical status, like it's only for special forces etc. Is the C7 A2 another version of the M-4, it looks pretty similar. The Enfield L85AI or SA80 would probably make for a good armoured crew weapon also.

    While the MP5 is an excellent weapon, it's not the most robust weapon.  Although, I don't see them getting too beat up while being locked up in the hull for the crew.  It is already in the system, but lacks the punch of a rifle round.  How do you guys feel about the C8CQB with a 10" barrel and eotech?

 

[glock17]

Back to the SMG for a sec....

What a great house clearing weapon it was, throw on a full mag, rack it, safety off and chuck it through a window......LMAO

We always had a hard time keeping them from freezing up in the winter, I recall one of the IA's being " remove the front sling hook and clip it around the bolt stud, then kinda hold it between your legs and yank like hell"

Thanks for taking me back...

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Kal in what way is the MP5 not robust? In my experience the weapon can take a lot of abuse and still be as reliable as ever.

 

[KevinB]

Any weapon that has a dent remover as part of the armourer kit 

I don't like 9mm in a primary pers weapon - and the MP-5 while an excellent weapon for some uses is not a good green gun - it is relatively fragile (the thin steel receiver - hence dent removing mandrel).

Nothing wrong with C8's and Pistols (provided its a Sig  ;D )

 

[TCBF]

"Actually, when stowed in the Trim Vane, it is easily accessable to beat off those Anti-Nuke Socialist Hippie type Protesters on Fall Ex, also."

And, it was great for playing baseball using crushed Heineken cans as balls.

C8 with a 10" bbl.   :   Still too fragile. (Note: I have removed data Kevin B said was flawed.)



A short bbl'd 7.62mm Ar-10 might do irt, but why not just use our in-stock SMGs?   More rugged than the HK.

Tom

 

[Island Ryhno]

So a Sig Sauer and some sort of short barrelled 7.62mm would be ideal eh. So does anyone use M203s in armoured?

 

[George Wallace]

So a Sig Sauer and some sort of short barrelled 7.62mm would be ideal eh. So does anyone use M203s in armoured?

Like Air Crew, a Sig strapped to the leg in an AFV would be nice.   Easy to handle in tight places.   If you are in the hatch and need to use it, I am sure the range will be less than 25 feet.   In most tanks there were at least two guys who Pers Wpns were pistols, while the others had SMGs (Pre C7/C8 days)   Once dismounted, a pistol isn't going to do you much good, but at least you'd have something (strapped to you) if you bailed out in a hurry.   SMGs would have a bit better range and stopping power.   If you are a Rambo type, you could always grab the Ack Ack (C6).


Oh.....I forgot.....M203's are found, but not to the extent that the Grunts use them.

 

[KevinB]

Tom who gave you this retarded subsonic idea? and fragile C8  ???  

Fragmentation from the ~2500-2700 fps threshold is not the sound barrier.

The C1 is not a good SMG - lets not even joke about bringing it back.

 

[Island Ryhno]

That C-6 would probably be cumbersome even for someone as Arnoldesque as myself  8) I find this all very fascinating, I'm guessing that the best thing that could happen is to not have to get out of an armoured vehicle at all. I'm curios as to how often troopers find themselves deployed as infantry and thus the questions about the personal weapons.  I understand that a pistol is very short range, I just imagine that in tight spaces it may serve the purpose better than trying to manouvere a C-7 or C-8 around.

 

[TCBF]

Kevin: I have removed the data above as I can't find the source of my misconception at the moment.

I liked the SMG 9mm C1.  Iw was rugged.  It worked,  most stoppages were bad ammo, not the gun.  I could hit falling plates at 50m with it.  I could prob outshoot a lot of C8 carriers (I won't call them "shooters" because they never get to shoot). and we didn't break as many in AFVs as we do the C8s.

I would take it over the C8.  But, if that is a no go do to the ammo comonality issue, then let's make a proper shorty C8 with a rugged bbl.  A Canadian AKR, if you will.

Troopers prob spend more time outside of their vehs than in, whether on sentry, maint, replen, battle procedure, tactical drills or - dare I say it? - rest.  

Tom

 

[George Wallace]

Troopers will find themselves as "Infantry" while in a Recce Troop or the (now disappeared) Assault Troop.  Depending on what kind of Tour they may be on, they may be in an 'Infantry' organization.  After all, once their Veh is gone, they are Infantry.

If your vehicle is being overrun, grenades and pistols can come in handy to defend yourself, while mounted.  Once you bail out, you'll like to have a little more 'fire power' and then your C8/C7 will come in handy.  If you have the time and desire, grab that C6 up top on the way out.  

 

[TCBF]

"If you have the time and desire, grab that C6 up top on the way out."

You got that right, George.  Nothing like a couple of cans of "Full Meal Deal" to clean up the harbour and keep it spiffy.

;D

Tom

 

[Island Ryhno]

GW I would be more than happy to grab that C-6, I'll remember that if I ever find myself in the situation. I figured as much about the infantry stuff, I'll be going armoured this year and with the strong possibility of getting deployed rather quickly, I figure I should garner all the info I can from some of the very most experienced. Thanks for all the info guys, this is a great discussion.

 

[KevinB]

Tom - I think the drivers would be better off with the C8CQB - yeah the frag range is 15m - but you still will make him bleed out much better than 9mm ball to about 180m, then its just an icepick - like 9mm ball but skinnier. The Gunner and CC can get the C8SFW's - for they can keep the wpn out of the vehicle and grab it with their tac gear when they dismount.  - That way you coudl also mount M203's and give the C7's a rest. I posted in that assinine pistol thread in radio chatter about the frag ranges   - hit me up on the DIN (d-boland.ks) if you want some USSOC terminal effect data.

I think the NAVY made a major blunder with the MP-5's - thsoe chose the Look Cool Factor over terminal effectivenss.


Cheers

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

It means an extra step at the clearing bay but I prefer to carry both a C8 and a pistol.  A pistol on its own is not really appropriate for crewmen but I'd like for each crewman to have one.  Having both means that the crew can "bail out" and still be armed.  In addition, a thigh-rig pistol allows the crew commander to dismount and talk to a local in a less intimidating fashion.  An updated 9mm would be good but I'm not too fussy!

KevinB

As a tank sqn BC I did see several C8s wrecked by the vehicle when they slipped out of the brackets and got caught by the turret.  What is the length of the CQB version as opposed to the normal one (at shortest length)?  Shorter is indeed better for AFV crews IMHO.

Cheers,

2B

 

[FSTO]

Tom - I think the drivers would be better off with the C8CQB - yeah the frag range is 15m - but you still will make him bleed out much better than 9mm ball to about 180m, then its just an icepick - like 9mm ball but skinnier. The Gunner and CC can get the C8SFW's - for they can keep the wpn out of the vehicle and grab it with their tac gear when they dismount.  - That way you coudl also mount M203's and give the C7's a rest. I posted in that assinine pistol thread in radio chatter about the frag ranges   - hit me up on the DIN (d-boland.ks) if you want some USSOC terminal effect data.

I think the NAVY made a major blunder with the MP-5's - thsoe chose the Look Cool Factor over terminal effectivenss.


Cheers

The reason the Navy went with the MP-5 is because:

1. Compact design, 10 fully loadED NBP members + RIB Coxn + Diver= Very crowded boat
2. Commonality of ammo; P225 + MP-5= 9mm
3. We operate in a closed in a closed-in steel environment, would you want high velocity 5.56 rounds bouncing all around you?
4. We are not an assault team, we can defend ourselves and will be training to get ourselves out of trouble (thank god it hasn't (the trouble part) happened yet.)


thats about it.

Cheers

 

[KevinB]

The C8CBQ is ~10"  right at the front sight.

FSTO - as I mentioned before the 5.56mm round has JAG approved LandWarfare legal Reduced Richocette Limited Penetration rounds - that are both more terminaly effective in soft (human) tissue than 9mm JHP, and less penetration on hard tgt than the 9mm ball round.
  In short it is a win win solution.
If the NAVY wanted the MP-5 - the SD version woudl have been a better choice - especially in the fuel vapour environments found in some of those ships you board.

The C8CQB and MP-5 are VERY similar in size (I'll dig thru my photo albun and see if I have a side byside)

 

[Canadian Sig]

Man I gotta get a photo album like Kevin B's... >

 

[Garry]

Well, someone has to thump the old smg...guess I'll do it.

I suppose that I fired it as often as many- and had few problems "walking" the rounds up into a target. It really excelled at two things: house clearing and exercises. Houseclearing due to fully automatic fire on a short barrel/body, and exercises because you could fold the stock and drag it around easily.

I was really happy when we went to the C-7. Keeping in mind that I'm no hero and would greatly prefer to fight inside of 44 tons of steel, if forced to fight outside of a tank I'd much prefer to have an accurate weapon. Even weirder, but it was nice to have a weapon that hit reasonably hard (not too many who switched to 5.56 can say that!!!)

Anyone remember the guys who died due to the weapon being banged on the butt? (IIRC last one was in Montreal Olympics....)

The C-8 was even better- short, accurate, reliable, and hit well. We never had "racks" on our Leopard for them....but then we never broke any either.

I for one am VERY happy that we have the C-8. The improvements (light, scope, etc) must be a hoot as well...

Cheers-Garry