Armoured Crewman Weapons

[TangoTwoBravo]

So, and Echelon is a group of armoured vehicles operating together? Would this be somewhat correct? And they guys in the Echelon are the ones manning these vehicles? Or are they dismounts walking alongside these vehicles?

Don't worry too much about Echelons. Just know that crewmen are in the tanks, recce vehicles and the support vehicles. Everybody in a squadron is in a vehicle, although of course they dismount when required.

A tank squadron has a Squadron Headquarters (SHQ) with three tanks, four tank troops with four tanks each and a sizeable support element.

Each tank has four crew, so a troop has sixteen personnel. One tank is the Troop Leader commanded by a Lieutenant with a Master Corporal as the Loader and Trooper/Corporals as the driver and gunner. The second tank is commanded by a Warrant Officer who is the Troop Warrant (second in command) and he will tend to have the pick of the litter for his crew. The third tank is commanded by a Sergeant (could be a senior Master Corporal) and the fourth tank by a Master Corporal (could be a Sergeant). The soldiers in the troop tend work on their tanks in the bays, and they have their lockers there. When not training, they will spend much of their day in the hanger working on the tanks under the supervision of the Master Corporals. The Troop Leader, Troop Warrant Officer and Troop Sergeant are usually in a bull-pen style of office with the leadership of the other Troops. They certainly go down to the hangar floor but they (usually) leave the minute-to-minute supervision to the Master Corporals. In the field you all work and live together as crews/troops. Crews tend to be fairly informal when on/around the tank.

The crews in Squadron Headquarters will have all served in the Troops and have been noted as top performers. The crews in the "echelon" will also tend to be senior Troops and Corporals who can work with minimal supervision.

 

[ConsideringCareers…]

Don't worry too much about Echelons. Just know that crewmen are in the tanks, recce vehicles and the support vehicles. Everybody in a squadron is in a vehicle, although of course they dismount when required.

A tank squadron has a Squadron Headquarters (SHQ) with three tanks, four tank troops with four tanks each and a sizeable support element.

Each tank has four crew, so a troop has sixteen personnel. One tank is the Troop Leader commanded by a Lieutenant with a Master Corporal as the Loader and Trooper/Corporals as the driver and gunner. The second tank is commanded by a Warrant Officer who is the Troop Warrant (second in command) and he will tend to have the pick of the litter for his crew. The third tank is commanded by a Sergeant (could be a senior Master Corporal) and the fourth tank by a Master Corporal (could be a Sergeant). The soldiers in the troop tend work on their tanks in the bays, and they have their lockers there. When not training, they will spend much of their day in the hanger working on the tanks under the supervision of the Master Corporals. The Troop Leader, Troop Warrant Officer and Troop Sergeant are usually in a bull-pen style of office with the leadership of the other Troops. They certainly go down to the hangar floor but they (usually) leave the minute-to-minute supervision to the Master Corporals. In the field you all work and live together as crews/troops. Crews tend to be fairly informal when on/around the tank.

The crews in Squadron Headquarters will have all served in the Troops and have been noted as top performers. The crews in the "echelon" will also tend to be senior Troops and Corporals who can work with minimal supervision.

Okay, screenshotted this too, that is really cool how the Tank Troop is laid out (with a Lieutenant/Tp Warrant/two MCpls or Sgts as the crew commanders of a respective tank) thank you for that.

(To Loachman: is the F Echelon the only one with the armoured guys crewing the vehicles in it, or are all the vehicles in all three (right? Three?) echelons crewed by armoured soldiers (and officers)?)

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

In a tank squadron (and a recce squadron) the armoured vehicles with the fuel and ammunition are crewed by Crewmen. The maintainers drive their own vehicles, although the ARV (Armoured Recovery Vehicle) driver is often a tanker. Even the transport trucks (there are several types) in squadron echelon and the Headquarters Squadron are driven by Crewmen. Every Crewman must be able to drive, although not all are Drivers and not everybody is qualified to drive every vehicle. (did that make sense?) Heck, the Squadron Clerk (not a Crewman) drove my LSVW CP when I was a Sqn 2IC.

Bear in mind that I'm an officer - my Trooper days were a long time ago in the Reserves. There are some experienced Crewmen here who can give you a much better perspective! I'll bump up a post I did about what it means to be an Armour officer.

https://army.ca/forums/threads/100260.0.html

Cheers

 

[ConsideringCareers…]

In a tank squadron (and a recce squadron) the armoured vehicles with the fuel and ammunition are crewed by Crewmen. The maintainers drive their own vehicles, although the ARV (Armoured Recovery Vehicle) driver is often a tanker. Even the transport trucks (there are several types) in squadron echelon and the Headquarters Squadron are driven by Crewmen. Every Crewman must be able to drive, although not all are Drivers and not everybody is qualified to drive every vehicle. (did that make sense?) Heck, the Squadron Clerk (not a Crewman) drove my LSVW CP when I was a Sqn 2IC.

Bear in mind that I'm an officer - my Trooper days were a long time ago in the Reserves. There are some experienced Crewmen here who can give you a much better perspective! I'll bump up a post I did about what it means to be an Armour officer.

Cheers

Thanks man! Really nice of you!

 

[Loachman]

(To Loachman: is the F Echelon the only one with the armoured guys crewing the vehicles in it, or are all the vehicles in all three (right? Three?) echelons crewed by armoured soldiers (and officers)?)

It's already been explained, but I'd not have been able to get into that much detail, never having been Armour Corps myself.

I did do recce in a previous life, but in small green helicopters, working closely with Armoured Recce and Arty (and fast air and AHs as required), so I have some small knowledge in this area.

 

[ConsideringCareers…]

It's already been explained, but I'd not have been able to get into that much detail, never having been Armour Corps myself.

I did do recce in a previous life, but in small green helicopters, working closely with Armoured Recce and Arty (and fast air and AHs as required), so I have some small knowledge in this area.

Yeah, I had missed that reply, but I saw it right after. Thank you anyway.

 

[FJAG]

Okay, screenshotted this too, that is really cool how the Tank Troop is laid out (with a Lieutenant/Tp Warrant/two MCpls or Sgts as the crew commanders of a respective tank) thank you for that.

(To Loachman: is the F Echelon the only one with the armoured guys crewing the vehicles in it, or are all the vehicles in all three (right? Three?) echelons crewed by armoured soldiers (and officers)?)

The use of F, A and B Echelons is somewhat similar in the various combat arms branches (armoured, artillery, infantry and engineers) although they do vary substantially in composition.

For an armoured regiment there are in fact four recognized echelons: F, A1, A2 and B although there is flexibility in how A1 and A2 echelons are divided.

In short the F echelon has the main combat elements (tanks and/or reconnaissance vehicles) and their immediate command elements. It is commanded by the Squadron Commander, a major.

The A1 echelon contains the immediate support elements required by the F echelon. It generally travels within one or two tactical bounds of the F echelon and is commanded by the Squadron Sergeant Major, a Master Warrant Officer. It contains an armoured recovery vehicle, one or two ambulances, a POL (fuel) vehicle, ammunition vehicles, repair team vehicles (vehicle, radio, optics, weapons mechanics). These vehicles move tactically in conformity to the F echelon.

The A2 echelon is further back and more centralized and is commanded by the squadron second in command, a captain and will contain the remainder of the squadron's ambulances, ammunition, fuel and repair team vehicles (the mix of what goes forward with A1 and what stays behind with A2 varies with the situation. It is generally centrally located about 5 to 10 kms behind the F echelon and generally does not move in daylight unless absolutely necessary.

The B echelon contains all the support people and vehicles not required forward with the A echelons and is commanded by the Squadron Quartermaster Sergeant, usually a warrant officer. Here you would find the squadron's stores vehicle, kitchen, and baggage vehicles (if any). It is generally located back in the brigade administrative area.

The usual rule of thumb is that anything but specialist vehicles are driven by armoured crewman. Usually the various repair team vehicles are driven by their respective technicians. The kitchen by the cooks. Ambulances will generally be driven by crewmen so that the medics are free to work on their casualties in the back. Ammo, fuel, stores, etc are all driven by crewmen. One major reason why this is so is so that there is a small supply of additional trained crewmen on hand who can be moved up to the F echelon to replace casualties.

Please note that the above discussion relates to operations where the regiment operates in combat as part of a brigade. During operations in Afghanistan the situation was quite different. There only a single squadron was deployed and operating out of Kandahar and various forward operating bases. There were some significant modifications made to cater to the various types of missions and support structures that were in use there although the general answer to your question respecting drivers would be the same.

:cheers:

 

[ConsideringCareers…]

The use of F, A and B Echelons is somewhat similar in the various combat arms branches (armoured, artillery, infantry and engineers) although they do vary substantially in composition.

For an armoured regiment there are in fact four recognized echelons: F, A1, A2 and B although there is flexibility in how A1 and A2 echelons are divided.

In short the F echelon has the main combat elements (tanks and/or reconnaissance vehicles) and their immediate command elements. It is commanded by the Squadron Commander, a major.

The A1 echelon contains the immediate support elements required by the F echelon. It generally travels within one or two tactical bounds of the F echelon and is commanded by the Squadron Sergeant Major, a Master Warrant Officer. It contains an armoured recovery vehicle, one or two ambulances, a POL (fuel) vehicle, ammunition vehicles, repair team vehicles (vehicle, radio, optics, weapons mechanics). These vehicles move tactically in conformity to the F echelon.

The A2 echelon is further back and more centralized and is commanded by the squadron second in command, a captain and will contain the remainder of the squadron's ambulances, ammunition, fuel and repair team vehicles (the mix of what goes forward with A1 and what stays behind with A2 varies with the situation. It is generally centrally located about 5 to 10 kms behind the F echelon and generally does not move in daylight unless absolutely necessary.

The B echelon contains all the support people and vehicles not required forward with the A echelons and is commanded by the Squadron Quartermaster Sergeant, usually a warrant officer. Here you would find the squadron's stores vehicle, kitchen, and baggage vehicles (if any). It is generally located back in the brigade administrative area.

The usual rule of thumb is that anything but specialist vehicles are driven by armoured crewman. Usually the various repair team vehicles are driven by their respective technicians. The kitchen by the cooks. Ambulances will generally be driven by crewmen so that the medics are free to work on their casualties in the back. Ammo, fuel, stores, etc are all driven by crewmen. One major reason why this is so is so that there is a small supply of additional trained crewmen on hand who can be moved up to the F echelon to replace casualties.

Please note that the above discussion relates to operations where the regiment operates in combat as part of a brigade. During operations in Afghanistan the situation was quite different. There only a single squadron was deployed and operating out of Kandahar and various forward operating bases. There were some significant modifications made to cater to the various types of missions and support structures that were in use there although the general answer to your question respecting drivers would be the same.

:cheers:

Thank you for the reply, you really broke it down for me, thank you! ;D

 

[ConsideringCareers…]

Don't worry too much about Echelons. Just know that crewmen are in the tanks, recce vehicles and the support vehicles. Everybody in a squadron is in a vehicle, although of course they dismount when required.

A tank squadron has a Squadron Headquarters (SHQ) with three tanks, four tank troops with four tanks each and a sizeable support element.

Each tank has four crew, so a troop has sixteen personnel. One tank is the Troop Leader commanded by a Lieutenant with a Master Corporal as the Loader and Trooper/Corporals as the driver and gunner. The second tank is commanded by a Warrant Officer who is the Troop Warrant (second in command) and he will tend to have the pick of the litter for his crew. The third tank is commanded by a Sergeant (could be a senior Master Corporal) and the fourth tank by a Master Corporal (could be a Sergeant). The soldiers in the troop tend work on their tanks in the bays, and they have their lockers there. When not training, they will spend much of their day in the hanger working on the tanks under the supervision of the Master Corporals. The Troop Leader, Troop Warrant Officer and Troop Sergeant are usually in a bull-pen style of office with the leadership of the other Troops. They certainly go down to the hangar floor but they (usually) leave the minute-to-minute supervision to the Master Corporals. In the field you all work and live together as crews/troops. Crews tend to be fairly informal when on/around the tank.

The crews in Squadron Headquarters will have all served in the Troops and have been noted as top performers. The crews in the "echelon" will also tend to be senior Troops and Corporals who can work with minimal supervision.

Sorry to ask another question about this in this post, I know it has not much to do with the weapons, I just don’t want to make ANOTHER post, I think people are starting to get ticked off at me.

Are these positions the same in a Recce Tp, or are they different?
Are there still 4 vehicles in a Tp? More? Less?

Thank you, and sorry for posting this here, I am just now thinking that it will make this info harder to find for others, sorry about that.

 

[mariomike]

Are these positions the same in a Recce Tp, or are they different?
Are there still 4 vehicles in a Tp? More? Less?

A tank troop has four tanks and sixteen men while a recce troop has eight Coyotes and thirty-two men.

See also,

Armoured Recce
https://www.google.ca/search?dcr=0&biw=1280&bih=603&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+armoured+recce&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca+armoured+recce&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0.0.55905.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0.dummy_maps_web_fallback...0...1..64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.P060HSEXGjA

 

[ConsideringCareers…]

See also,

Armoured Recce
https://www.google.ca/search?dcr=0&biw=1280&bih=603&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+armoured+recce&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca+armoured+recce&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0.0.55905.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0.dummy_maps_web_fallback...0...1..64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.P060HSEXGjA

Wow I really missed that, how blind am I?

 

[mariomike]

Wow I really missed that, how blind am I?

We are here to help. 

 

[Loachman]

Wow I really missed that, how blind am I?

Maybe you should go for tanks rather than recce...

 

[ConsideringCareers…]

Maybe you should go for tanks rather than recce...

Maybe

I didn’t realize that quoting someone didn’t quote the quotes that they had quoted, I meant to quote the quote from T2B that MarioMike had quoted quottingly.

Thank you for your quoteness!

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I mess up the quote function - Loachman was just having a little fun.

Do you like the idea of Truckzilla laying waste to things? Then go tanks. If you like the idea of sneaking around then go Recce.

In either case, do you enjoy off-roading? My best drivers all came to the Army with extensive off-road experience. One had worked forestry in BC while another had worked forestry in Nova Scotia. Both could judge what their machine could do in tough terrain.

 

[ConsideringCareers…]

I mess up the quote function - Loachman was just having a little fun.

Do you like the idea of Truckzilla laying waste to things? Then go tanks. If you like the idea of sneaking around then go Recce.

In either case, do you enjoy off-roading? My best drivers all came to the Army with extensive off-road experience. One had worked forestry in BC while another had worked forestry in Nova Scotia. Both could judge what their machine could do in tough terrain.

Well I am fifteen and I don’t have a license. But off the record, offroading (mudding and whatever in my dad’s jeep) is just about the funnest thing. Every thing I learn about both Armoured and Engineers makes me very interested in both, I have no idea what I would prefer more, maybe I have only heard of the fun jobs of the engineers (BOOM!), but still, both sound amazing.

Why are Tankers called Black-Hatters, is this referring to the Beret, or the Helmet? Because other groups have black berets.

 

[mariomike]

Why are Tankers called Black-Hatters, is this referring to the Beret, or the Helmet?

"Soldiers of an Armoured occupation and soldiers posted to Armoured units will wear Black Berets."

The Armoured Corps has worn black berets since its formation over 60 years ago.

Because other groups have black berets.

"The maritime environment has a black beret."

Beret Colours
https://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Beret_Colours

 

[ConsideringCareers…]

Oh that makes sense, I was a little confused because I had never heard anyone else called a black-hatter.

Thanks

 

[mariomike]

Thanks

You are welcome. Good luck. 

 

[FJAG]

Oh that makes sense, I was a little confused because I had never heard anyone else called a black-hatter.

Thanks

Totally irrelevant and ff topic: fact but in the American Civil War in the 1860s there was a famous infantry brigade in the Union Army from Wisconsin which was known as the "Iron Brigade" and was nicknamed "The Black Hats" because of the black "Hardee" hats that they wore.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Brigade

:cheers: