Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)

[PuckChaser]

I just love the fact that the amalgamation of the trades designed to remove stovepiping, has now resigned itself to stovepiping as CISTM was a stupid idea in the first place...

All we've done is create a new trade, and destroy any training value that ACISS-Core (SigOp) had it its previous DP1/2 courses.

 

[Brasidas]

I just love the fact that the amalgamation of the trades designed to remove stovepiping, has now resigned itself to stovepiping as CISTM was a stupid idea in the first place...

All we've done is create a new trade, and destroy any training value that ACISS-Core (SigOp) had it its previous DP1/2 courses.

And undermined the line and tech trades by forcing them to be sig ops in addition to their "core" trade.

 

[upandatom]

If sigs doesn't get its act together, the army isn't going to wait for us; they will figure out how to do business without and around us. No one is irreplaceable. The rest of the CF doesn’t care about our internal problems, all they care about is can we deliver X by Y date, if the answer is no, they’ll find a solution. If the answer is no too often, they’ll find an alternate source.

That's a simple fact of life with the CF. The longer we flounder around trying to figure out how we're going to do business, the less relevant we'll be to the rest of the CF as they adapt to overcome our current short comings.

They will move forward regardless of if we keep up or not. Sigs as an organization has been seen as a speed bump long before MES, I cringe at the thought of what they think of it now.

BINGO- I have already seen them starting to adapt, etc, mainly because ACISS is lacking in numbers, and not able to fill required positions. (which I find funny because the trade was listed as green not too long ago)

This is the first I have read this thread in several months, and I was actually surprised there was not ANY kind of update (The only one I have seen is the new RCCS epaulets and "High visibility" bullshit). I am interested to see where it goes in the next year. The amount of civilian job opportunities that are opening up with better pay are becoming abundant and these companies are looking for qualified, mature people with the skillset the Military provides, instead of the kids fresh out of school and college.

I have my money on a mass exodus of the Army signals starting this year, and continuing on for the next 5 years or so, which will kill it. People now are researching before joining, and one of the first places that pops up on google when they type in "ACISS" or CAF signals, etc is this site, they join it, they read it, they get scared off. They find something else.

The way its being treated is disgusting. Noone gives a rats ass anymore. They say they are fixing it, its been 4/5 years since this started. If we took 4/5 years to fix something we'd be in deep shit.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Does the branch/D RCCS have any idea how little faith this affords them from their troops? Even a "Wait, Out" at least every quarter is better than leaving us in the dark.

This kind of shady behaviour does not bode well of the media get hold of this.

 

[Brasidas]

Does the branch/D RCCS have any idea how little faith this affords them from their troops? Even a "Wait, Out" at least every quarter is better than leaving us in the dark.

This kind of shady behaviour does not bode well of the media get hold of this.

Why would the media care?

A couple decades back, there was a brilliant batch of leading change bubbles that saw the Dental Corps downsized. Along with gutting the support trades, DO positions were replaced with civilian contractors and early retirement offers abounded. It would be more cost-effective. They couldn't maintain an effective staff with the budget on offer, and they weren't deployable. So folks who got bonuses to leave were given bonuses to come back. One that I knew had managed to go bankrupt between running a private practice into the ground and learning about maxing out credit cards. Many did fine and there wasn't enough incentive to come back.

Backtracking and paying lump sums twice to rehire is publicly embarrassing, at least if the people making decisions in power. Politicians can have fingers pointed at.

When a foolish amalgamation compromises real signals support capability, lassos trades in to bolter a distressed trade without addressing why its distressed, and guts morale with the mushroom technique, its not news.

The best solution to all of this is not to carry on training linemen and electronics technicians to be not just radio operators, but signals detachment commanders. I'm not sure if or when that solution is going to be reached, but it will not happen through an embarrassing news story.

 

[ixium]

Wait until IST gets spec pay, and the guy beside you in your job gets 3 years back pay and you get jack squat simply because they checked a box.

You do the same job, but one gets paid differently.
That is going to be exciting. And my VR will be in the hands of my supervisor the next day.

Our trade is filled with people from the old days that like to live in the past, nothing will change until that does.
I work in a place that has way to much overhead already, simply because "A Sgt can't report to a MWO/officer!" mentality. Understaffed in the wrong places, and overstaffed in the worst places. Yet no one cares.

 

[ixium]

June 05, 2008

Btw, that is this threads start date. At this rate I'd expect the LSVW replacements to be all around Canada before any useful information comes out.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Wait until IST gets spec pay, and the guy beside you in your job gets 3 years back pay and you get jack squat simply because they checked a box.

You do the same job, but one gets paid differently.
That is going to be exciting. And my VR will be in the hands of my supervisor the next day.

Our trade is filled with people from the old days that like to live in the past, nothing will change until that does.
I work in a place that has way to much overhead already, simply because "A Sgt can't report to a MWO/officer!" mentality. Understaffed in the wrong places, and overstaffed in the worst places. Yet no one cares.

Firstly, The IST sub occupation  was created because of the inequity between LCIS and Sig Ops working side by side in a Server room ,with one making 600 dollars a month more. Same skill sets, same training, different pay rates. Also, most NATO/5 Eyes armies had evolved and created specific IS trades within their Signals Corps in order to develop and maintain a specific IS capability  for the modern digital battlespace. We had Operators doing this job as a stop gap solution because the CAF came to the IT party late. Just because it was the way we had always done it doesn't mean its the optimal solution.

Secondly, I cannot see ISTs getting back paid unless they transferred from the old LCIS trade simply because of the cost and bureaucracy. I can see an spec pay implementation date for IST and that is all.

As for the releases, that is part of what is wrong with the Signals Branch as a whole. The attrition rate of skilled people has a close to 4 year turn around for replacement. At which time, a 2.1 qualified member will be done their contract and out the door with those skills. They will be bringing them to organizations that are willing to pay 70 - 80K a year, unlike the CAF. Having internal squabbling and sour grapes only exacerbates the problem. The worst thing they did was dangle this Spec pay carrot for everyone. It solidified the "Us and Them" attitudes and we're worse off for it.

Whatever the outcome, I think this will take at least 20 years before its all as the MES briefing said it would be in 2008.

 

[upandatom]

Firstly, The IST sub occupation  was created because of the inequity between LCIS and Sig Ops working side by side in a Server room ,with one making 600 dollars a month more. Same skill sets, same training, different pay rates. Also, most NATO/5 Eyes armies had evolved and created specific IS trades within their Signals Corps in order to develop and maintain a specific IS capability  for the modern digital battlespace. We had Operators doing this job as a stop gap solution because the CAF came to the IT party late. Just because it was the way we had always done it doesn't mean its the optimal solution.

Secondly, I cannot see ISTs getting back paid unless they transferred from the old LCIS trade simply because of the cost and bureaucracy. I can see an spec pay implementation date for IST and that is all.

As for the releases, that is part of what is wrong with the Signals Branch as a whole. The attrition rate of skilled people has a close to 4 year turn around for replacement. At which time, a 2.1 qualified member will be done their contract and out the door with those skills. They will be bringing them to organizations that are willing to pay 70 - 80K a year, unlike the CAF. Having internal squabbling and sour grapes only exacerbates the problem. The worst thing they did was dangle this Spec pay carrot for everyone. It solidified the "Us and Them" attitudes and we're worse off for it.

Whatever the outcome, I think this will take at least 20 years before its all as the MES briefing said it would be in 2008.

Thats a whole lot of PEW PEW PEW that makes too much sense for Army Signals.

Wait until IST gets spec pay, and the guy beside you in your job gets 3 years back pay and you get jack squat simply because they checked a box.

You do the same job, but one gets paid differently.
That is going to be exciting. And my VR will be in the hands of my supervisor the next day.

Hate to break it to you but its already happening in units. JSR, Base Side units, NOCs where a CST or IST can fill the position with the right courses and skills and sits across from an ATIS tech. Same Job, Different Pay scales.

I am not talking Legacy LCIS that has become IST/CST, I am talking a recruited and trained ACISS member.

Why would the media care?

A couple decades back,

Google was founded in 1998, before many homes had a regular internet connection. Social media was non existant. Now adays you can access your FB and read about a news story in France on a BBC Link while sitting on the crapper at work, before you hear it on the radio, or see it on TV here. Its the nature of our society and how it has moved with rapid exchange of information. More and more stories come out about the ridiculous spending (Digitizing of med files for VA, and even then it still is taking 6 months to transfer files). The books are opened up about how much was spent on this, only to end up with less qualified people that are recieving a skillset and walking out the door 4 years later(add in a PAID move at end of contract), it could be a media frenzy. Times have changed, Media can put out 1000 BS stories a day on there webpages and have it syndicated world wide and it takes one person to dig deeper.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Thats a whole lot of PEW PEW PEW that makes too much sense for Army Signals.

Perhaps you're right. Regardless, the train was built as it left the station, regardless of if they had even a rough picture of what a train looked like. Those who pushed for this are no longer in uniform and thus have no idea  or care for the hailstorm they set off. We get to bear the brunt of all this.

 

[Brasidas]

Google was founded in 1998, before many homes had a regular internet connection. Social media was non existant. Now adays you can access your FB and read about a news story in France on a BBC Link while sitting on the crapper at work, before you hear it on the radio, or see it on TV here. Its the nature of our society and how it has moved with rapid exchange of information. More and more stories come out about the ridiculous spending (Digitizing of med files for VA, and even then it still is taking 6 months to transfer files). The books are opened up about how much was spent on this, only to end up with less qualified people that are recieving a skillset and walking out the door 4 years later(add in a PAID move at end of contract), it could be a media frenzy. Times have changed, Media can put out 1000 BS stories a day on there webpages and have it syndicated world wide and it takes one person to dig deeper.

And while the pay to go, pay to come back story might have had legs today, this one doesn't.

The branch is screwed up, MES screwed it up further, but its not concrete enough for anyone to care. A combat arms guy might give a damn if his sigs support is compromised, but making a tech have to be a sig op, undermining morale three ways from sunday, and throwing retention under the bus isn't "I'm a Cpl with two kids and I have to go to the foodbank to make ends meet". The important metrics on this are qualitative - how does it affect the capability of the CF? The quantitative points on retention are important, but are symptoms rather than the big problem.

The problem isn't with politicians or the TB, it isn't something clear enough for the public to understand, and the media isn't going to pick up the story. This is a problem that needs to be broadly recognized within the CF, particularly by way higher, and someone needs to say "Stop. Wind back the clock, rationalize the trades, and be honest with the troops."

If life as a sig op is less than appealing to everybody, ok. Do the best you can with it,  and don't string troops along with false promises of spec pay. Bring back the QL5 CT signing bonus if needbe.

 

[upandatom]

And while the pay to go, pay to come back story might have had legs today, this one doesn't.

The branch is screwed up, MES screwed it up further, but its not concrete enough for anyone to care. A combat arms guy might give a damn if his sigs support is compromised, but making a tech have to be a sig op, undermining morale three ways from sunday, and throwing retention under the bus isn't "I'm a Cpl with two kids and I have to go to the foodbank to make ends meet". The important metrics on this are qualitative - how does it affect the capability of the CF? The quantitative points on retention are important, but are symptoms rather than the big problem.

The problem isn't with politicians or the TB, it isn't something clear enough for the public to understand, and the media isn't going to pick up the story. This is a problem that needs to be broadly recognized within the CF, particularly by way higher, and someone needs to say "Stop. Wind back the clock, rationalize the trades, and be honest with the troops."

If life as a sig op is less than appealing to everybody, ok. Do the best you can with it,  and don't string troops along with false promises of spec pay. Bring back the QL5 CT signing bonus if needbe.

I dont think the Sigs Branch was screwed up before MES. Yes, It needed a new trade, but the branch had adapted and put people into the right position to handle the new requirements.

The Branch need a tweeking, not a sledge hammer. There were always people that asked to be a Sig Op, some people oddly did enjoy it. The problem with the high attrition in Sig Op Land was the mentality of "My instructor was an asshole to me, so I am now instructing I will be too."  I saw very little mentoring on the Sig Op side of the house, it was a very dog eat dog. Call me a Sig Op basher and hater all you want, I dont really care, but when you see peers set up other peers for failure intentionally, even staff setting up their members for failure you get the same view as I have gotten.

The TB doesnt leave their office, and only speaks to the officers and higher ups that write the "Job Specs" which are way off from what pers do daily. Thats a problem. They write in a perfect world. 

 

[Brasidas]

I dont think the Sigs Branch was screwed up before MES.

There are degrees of screwed up. Its much worse than it was.

Sickness in the sig op trade did not help either tac comms or strategic comms at the end of the day, and that was an issue. MES broke LCIS and lineman without fixing that at all.

Yes, It needed a new trade, but the branch had adapted and put people into the right position to handle the new requirements.

Agreed.

The Branch need a tweeking, not a sledge hammer. There were always people that asked to be a Sig Op, some people oddly did enjoy it. The problem with the high attrition in Sig Op Land was the mentality of "My instructor was an ******* to me, so I am now instructing I will be too."  I saw very little mentoring on the Sig Op side of the house, it was a very dog eat dog. Call me a Sig Op basher and hater all you want, I dont really care, but when you see peers set up other peers for failure intentionally, even staff setting up their members for failure you get the same view as I have gotten.

The TB doesnt leave their office, and only speaks to the officers and higher ups that write the "Job Specs" which are way off from what pers do daily. Thats a problem. They write in a perfect world.

It was not just the school. 1 HQ & Sigs, in particular, generated a lot of its own sig op-hating sig ops.

 

[JBP]

There are degrees of screwed up. Its much worse than it was.

Sickness in the sig op trade did not help either tac comms or strategic comms at the end of the day, and that was an issue. MES broke LCIS and lineman without fixing that at all.


Agreed.

It was not just the school. 1 HQ & Sigs, in particular, generated a lot of its own sig op-hating sig ops.

That's the understatement of the year! Last year and this one... 1 Sigs showed me the absolute worst in the Sigs world and how to crush the souls of those who were the best in the Sigs world. I was there for 7 years and had I been told I was staying there for another year, I would have released as my contract was up... Thank the career manager for getting me out of there!!! 1 Sigs destroyed people at all levels of the chain from Pte to Col! Not kidding...

Not to turn this into a 1 Sigs bashing contest but in the signals world as a whole, I've seen the most terrible examples of leadership I could imagine... I had better examples of leadership in the reserve infantry! Some of the people we've promoted in the Sigs corps is the very fault in our entire branch. I think it's one of the critical factors that has made Sigs terrible for years.

I've had leadership that has outright lied to my face about simple and complex things. Leadership that was so ignorant of the work we do or what even needed to be done that their very orders were setting us up for a grand cascading failure. Multiple times. I've seen leadership at many levels whom outright dismissed dire warnings about personnel issues and blatantly stated they do not care for the welfare of that or those troops... Just 'get the f**king job done I don't give a s*it what it takes or who breaks over it!"... I've also gotten a lot of training and experience out of 1 Sigs I'll say. It formed the basis for my career and helped build me into a 1st generation IST in the 'old school' way and I've moved on and modernized.

That is what has made the Signal branch so bad for years... Finally, our generation of 'new' leadership is emerging and is starting to influence the chain and support the subordinates. I've noticed a change already in a few places...

If the Jr leaders can shield the boys and influence the chain to our advantage, things should start to get better.

 

[PuckChaser]

That is what has made the Signal branch so bad for years... Finally, our generation of 'new' leadership is emerging and is starting to influence the chain and support the subordinates. I've noticed a change already in a few places...

If the Jr leaders can shield the boys and influence the chain to our advantage, things should start to get better.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. There's 2 types of things a leader can show "What to do" and "What not to do". Unfortunately with a lot of Sigs units, our junior leaders are getting "What not to do" more often than not. The trick here is to keep those good young leaders engaged and promoted into positions to actually affect change in our system like you said.

I'm not going to name my current unit, but a lot of what you said about 1 Sigs resonates with me. Our (Sigs) officer corps seems so willfully ignorant of basic leadership principles we're setting tasks up for failure before they even start. "Make it happen" has become a crutch for our piss poor planning, and the troops can see it regardless of how much you try to shelter them (and show loyalty to the CoC).

 

[PiperDown]

I wonder what happened to " I'm confident we will hear a decision on spec pay in the next couple of months" that an email received from the branch back in September indicated ?
After years and years of waiting for an answer, why doesn't anyone in the leadership have the balls to say " spec pay is dead. We fucked up " instead all we get fluff and BS. A "NO" answer at his point would give more credibility than the constant " a decision is forthcoming...we are working very hard.....it's our number one priority "  garbage we have been fed for over 3 years.

Last year I personally asked the CFCWO what was happening with ACISS and he was under the impression everything was already sorted out. Now, that's gotta make ya feel special right ?

 

[JBP]

I wonder what happened to " I'm confident we will hear a decision on spec pay in the next couple of months" that an email received from the branch back in September indicated ?
After years and years of waiting for an answer, why doesn't anyone in the leadership have the balls to say " spec pay is dead. We ****ed up " instead all we get fluff and BS. A "NO" answer at his point would give more credibility than the constant " a decision is forthcoming...we are working very hard.....it's our number one priority "  garbage we have been fed for over 3 years.

Last year I personally asked the CFCWO what was happening with ACISS and he was under the impression everything was already sorted out. Now, that's gotta make ya feel special right ?

So please tell me you sorted him out on our trade?!? I almost got to go to a lunch/brunch thing with him and some others from my unit as a 'pat on the back' kind of thing (More of whoever was left around or just back from tasking IMO) but it was cancelled day of. I was ready to fill his boots with an informative digest of the current signals branch...

 

[PiperDown]

LOL I did.  He seemed quite surprised we have been strung along as long as we have.
He promised to look into it and get back to me within a month.
To his credit, he did email me ( through the CoC) but his email said the branch advised him spec pay was their number one priority and a decision would be coming down very soon.

This was a year ago.  It seems the branch is as good at bluffing the CFCWO as it is the rest of us.

 

[upandatom]

I think you hit the nail on the head here. There's 2 types of things a leader can show "What to do" and "What not to do". Unfortunately with a lot of Sigs units, our junior leaders are getting "What not to do" more often than not. The trick here is to keep those good young leaders engaged and promoted into positions to actually affect change in our system like you said.

I'm not going to name my current unit, but a lot of what you said about 1 Sigs resonates with me. Our (Sigs) officer corps seems so willfully ignorant of basic leadership principles we're setting tasks up for failure before they even start. "Make it happen" has become a crutch for our piss poor planning, and the troops can see it regardless of how much you try to shelter them (and show loyalty to the CoC).

Ha! No way any signals leadership can be worse then EME leadership. Try being a SIG in a fully EME unit. When you have EME telling you how to fix radios, or what your doing wrong.

 

[Old EO Tech]

Ha! No way any signals leadership can be worse then EME leadership. Try being a SIG in a fully EME unit. When you have EME telling you how to fix radios, or what your doing wrong.

You have had a very different experience from myself and many LCIS tech's I know and have supervised.  I have never told them how to fix radios.....but I do tell them how to sort out their DRMIS Work Orders that most LCIS/ACISS CST are not terribly good at.  And not to order ECL items on a WO :-/

And not to derail the current discussion but most LCIS tech's here in 1 CMBG would rather work for Maint Pl(RCEME) as they do in a couple units like Svc Bn and LdSH, than work in Sigs Pl's.  It makes co-odinating vehicle inspections and EMO's much simply when all maintainers work for the same boss.