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"Army investigating members allegedly involved in 'abhorrent' Facebook group"

Or they posted as a Pte 10 years ago and complete forgot about it. It might mean they still think it is ok.

Equally, they might be deeply embarrassed by their posts from 10 years ago.

We don’t know.
Alternatively, they can think it’s ok all they wish. The CAF does not have the right to police your thoughts.

They have the right to limit what you do in regards to the workplace but freedom of thought is a right.

Provided they have learned to keep it out of the workplace, what right does the CAF actually have to attempt to police such conduct?
 
I'm not sure Remedial Measures would be appropriate for 6+ year old posts if there's no pattern of it or recent instances.

DAOD 5019-4 states


a. might be met if they don't realize the comments/posts were wrong.

b&c. if there is no recent behavior then they've already overcome the deficiency and don't need time to fix it.

Additionally


Looking at 5.1(b) you could argue that one post 6 or 10 years ago and nothing since shows the member has corrected the deficiency over time.

In my opinion giving remedial measures for historical facebook posts would be disciplinary in nature and not in the spirit of what remedial measures are intended to accomplish.
I think 4.7 (a) covers how it could be applied in these cases. A RM would be an very offical way of letting a member know their conduct, though in the past, is deficient compared to CAF standards in effect at that time.

Applying new standards to past conduct would be wrong, but recording and offically letting a member know their conduct was not within standards when it occurred seems reasonable.

Otherwise, we are telling troops that so long as you don't get caught within 6 years, your behavior doesn't matter. Hardly seems like an effective way to run a military to me.
 
Alternatively, they can think it’s ok all they wish. The CAF does not have the right to police your thoughts.

They have the right to limit what you do in regards to the workplace but freedom of thought is a right.

Provided they have learned to keep it out of the workplace, what right does the CAF actually have to attempt to police such conduct?
I haven't seen anything suggesting CAF is policing pure thoughts. Freedom of expression is not absolute. A thought never given voice will remain unknown. If a CAF member hypothetically holds bigoted views and lets that be known by their words or actions, either on or off duty, then there's absolutely room to look at whether it concerns the employer. And for some types of expressed believes, it categorically will concern CAF as the employer.

There's conduct that will never be acceptable for CAF members regardless of context; it will be incompatible with further employment. There's conduct that might be rude or incivil but is entirely of a private nature and CAF cannot realistically make any claim on it. And then there's a whole messy world between thsoe two.
 
I think 4.7 (a) covers how it could be applied in these cases. A RM would be an very offical way of letting a member know their conduct, though in the past, is deficient compared to CAF standards in effect at that time.
But wouldn't you would be giving them corrective measures for something that's already (presumably) been corrected? Why give them a 6 month period to prove they changed their behavior if the lack of new/recent posts already proves that.
Otherwise, we are telling troops that so long as you don't get caught within 6 years, your behavior doesn't matter. Hardly seems like an effective way to run a military to me.
If the historic facebook posts are offensive enough that the CAF needs to do something about it they should put the effort in and go the route of laying charges. That way the behavior is punished and the alledged offenders have an opportunity to defend themselves as well.

Not that I hoping for charges, but that seems more appropriate than remedial measures (if it's not recent).
 
Whatever the route the CAF chooses to follow they need to do it carefully and the right way.

I used to tell my Sgts and MCpls gather the facts first and don't go off half cocked. It may be embarassing.
 
Alternatively, they can think it’s ok all they wish. The CAF does not have the right to police your thoughts.

They have the right to limit what you do in regards to the workplace but freedom of thought is a right.

Provided they have learned to keep it out of the workplace, what right does the CAF actually have to attempt to police such conduct?

Think what you want, but stepping past the threshold of a military establishment does not absolve you from being held responsible for conduct and/or speech.

The National Defence Act

Regulations
12 (1) The Governor in Council may make regulations for the organization, training, discipline, efficiency, administration and good government of the Canadian Forces and generally for carrying the purposes and provisions of this Act into effect.

(2) Subject to section 13 and any regulations made by the Governor in Council, the Minister may make regulations for the organization, training, discipline, efficiency, administration and good government of the Canadian Forces and generally for carrying the purposes and provisions of this Act into effect.

and Queen's King's Regulations and Orders

19.14 - IMPROPER COMMENTS
(1) No officer or non-commissioned member shall make remarks or pass criticism tending to bring a superior into contempt, except as may be necessary for the proper presentation of a grievance under Chapter 7 (Grievances).

(2) No officer or non-commissioned member shall do or say anything that:
a. if seen or heard by any member of the public, might reflect discredit on the Canadian Forces or on any of its members;
or
b. if seen by, heard by or reported to those under him, might discourage them or render them dissatisfied with their condition or the duties on which they are employed.
(M) [15 June 2000 – (1)]
 
But wouldn't you would be giving them corrective measures for something that's already (presumably) been corrected? Why give them a 6 month period to prove they changed their behavior if the lack of new/recent posts already proves that.
Is a lack of new posts in that group proof of a change? Why presume when you can officially record that they are changed?

RM don't need to run for six months. You could have a shorter reporting period to lessen the burden on the CoC.

If the historic facebook posts are offensive enough that the CAF needs to do something about it they should put the effort in and go the route of laying charges. That way the behavior is punished and the alledged offenders have an opportunity to defend themselves as well.
This is the more interesting part. Because of the age if the posts, it needs to go to a CM. I'm not a lawyer, and haven't stayed in a Holiday Inn recently enough to have an opinion on how that would go.

Like I said, officially letting the member know that part bahaviour crossed the line seem like a reasonable use of RM.

Chatting with the PL WO isn't punishment, unless the WO eats a lot of onions and refuses to brush.

Not that I hoping for charges, but that seems more appropriate than remedial measures (if it's not recent).
RM isn't be punishment, it's just recording past behaviour that failed to meet the standard.

Having an RM on file doesn't(shouldn't, but armys gonna army)prevent people from advancing. It just means we have a record of padt behaviour in the event something comes up again.

I'd hope a future Cameron SNCM wouldn't pose twice with their "member" out for Harambe, or any othe cause...
 
Is a lack of new posts in that group proof of a change? Why presume when you can officially record that they are changed?

RM don't need to run for six months. You could have a shorter reporting period to lessen the burden on the CoC.


This is the more interesting part. Because of the age if the posts, it needs to go to a CM. I'm not a lawyer, and haven't stayed in a Holiday Inn recently enough to have an opinion on how that would go.
The issue also becomes who exactly is responsible
Original Poster?
And what If the Original poster isn’t even in that group anymore?
Current Members?
Current Admin?


Like I said, officially letting the member know that part bahaviour crossed the line seem like a reasonable use of RM.

Chatting with the PL WO isn't punishment, unless the WO eats a lot of onions and refuses to brush.


RM isn't be punishment, it's just recording past behaviour that failed to meet the standard.
The RM is designed to help the member correct the deficiency.

The issue in this case is that IF the posts are years old, it seems that the CA is solely acting due to the fact this has been brought up again, and doesn’t involve any new activity.






Having an RM on file doesn't(shouldn't, but armys gonna army)prevent people from advancing. It just means we have a record of padt behaviour in the event something comes up again.

I'd hope a future Cameron SNCM wouldn't pose twice with their "member" out for Harambe, or any othe cause...
My concern is there is a possibility this is a very stale issue - and no one had been thinking about it for a while, so no one bothered trying to scrub the group posts.
Or the issue may have already been addressed by the CHoO CoC, and dealt with.

Given the MP’s passed it off, would suggest there was nothing Criminal. Then given the time since the apparent postings (I’ve never seen anything from that group) it seems like the issue was already put to bed.
 
Or they posted as a Pte 10 years ago and complete forgot about it. It might mean they still think it is ok.

Equally, they might be deeply embarrassed by their posts from 10 years ago.

We don’t know.
I’m not sure knowing the reason even matters.

It’s not like old social media posts coming back to haunt people in the public sphere is a new thing.

Neither is hiring managers wanting candidates to provide SM profile info so it can be reviewed as part of the hiring process - to ensure a “good fit”. And neither is the resultant advice to people looking for work to curate their SM before they apply for jobs.

The CAF may very well find itself hamstrung in its ability to address this challenge, but the civilian employers of some of these folks - I assume the majority of them to be Class A - may not feel similarly constrained.

And people doxxing other people to their civilian employers for behaviour outside the workplace is also not a new phenomenon. I would be surprised if it doesn’t happen in this case.

So if these folks have forgotten what they posted - I’m not sure that even matters.
 
There's conduct that will never be acceptable for CAF members regardless of context; it will be incompatible with further employment. There's conduct that might be rude or incivil but is entirely of a private nature and CAF cannot realistically make any claim on it. And then there's a whole messy world between thsoe two.
One mustn't forget that the CAF is a branch of the government and, like the rest of the government, the CAF is subject to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. S 2b of the Charter provides that:
2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
The problem here is as you express it - there is a whole messy world in between.

Yes, there are limits on freedom of expression - so far it hits on things like child pornography, defamation and fostering violent actions among a few. The problem is that "thought" and "expression" exist on a continuum with clearly non problematic issues at one end and clearly harmful ones at the other. In between is that messy grey area. The CAF's options , however, are primarily binary: ignore being one and take action - disciplinary or administrative - being the other. Binary solutions applied against a continuum of facts requires that someone draws a defensible line that separate the two. Where the CAF can legally draw that line is the question.

The CAF is not particulalry well known for analyzing "lines" of conduct even with the glut of legal officers and lawyers that work in the department. This is why the CoC has often been disappointed with the outcomes of courts martial involving Charter issues. Let's not forget that regulations are subordinate to legislation and that legislation itself is subordinate to the Charter. It doesn't aid the CAF to have a regulation, like 19.14 if that regulation contravenes fundamental rights granted by the Charter. Any disciplinary, or even administrative, action taken against an individual for breaching an illegal regulation is in itself an illegal action.

So here's where the messy part comes in. Where is the line? Does the QR&O create a demonstrably necessary limitation on freedom of thought or expression? Do an individual's actions that the CAF believes damages its reputation - or for that matter that actually damages the CAF's reputation in some eyes - fall within a fundamental legal right of the individual or is it a reasonable limitation the government is allowed to set?

Quite frankly, the CAF very often pushes the boundaries in its favour and depends on individuals who are censured in some form or other to not test the limits through court action. Effectively one takes ones' lumps, shuts up and gets on with it rather than get involved in a lengthy and expensive legal process. You probably won't be surprised by how much government action works on that basis. Even when a person wins a fight against a particular regulation, the government just comes back with a redrafted one that tries to skirt the edges of the court ruling but still achieve their desired effect.

Want my guess? As I said I haven't seen all the posts but IMHO, that which has been reported, while distasteful to some, or even many, people is low grade stuff that easily falls within s2 protection? Part 2 of my guess is that it has embarrassed the CoC and some form of action will be taken by the CAF regardless. I doubt if it will be a CM process, because that would involve the courts' ruling on the limits. IMHO, the CAF doesn't want the courts involved.

🍻
 
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Alternatively, they can think it’s ok all they wish. The CAF does not have the right to police your thoughts.

They have the right to limit what you do in regards to the workplace but freedom of thought is a right.

Provided they have learned to keep it out of the workplace, what right does the CAF actually have to attempt to police such conduct?
It's interesting to see the changes that have occurred in the CAFs attitude towards social media over the years.

I remember early in my career during these lectures that we needed to make sure that no information about ourselves was available online and that we should do regular Google searches on ourselves to make sure nothing came up. This of course has changed significantly, especially with the number of professionals in the forces who are looking to network, etc. I mean it's gotten to the point that we have been told if we are going to post a picture from training to tag the Regiment in it.

I think that part of that has to do with the people in the higher C-of-C positions being from a younger generation now.

Although, the one thing I have always found interesting is people in the C-of-C trying to say that Class A reservists are subject to the CSD 100% of the time, basically telling us that we have been mislead by what is stated in the CSD.

My favorite thing about social media briefings is that we should not be posting anything political on Facebook. Now, I would agree this is a best practice, but I've never seen anyone actually be able to enforce it. Considering that Class A members are able to serve as Members of Parliament, it does that some of the steam out of the argument that we aren't allowed to be political.
 
The CAF may very well find itself hamstrung in its ability to address this challenge, but the civilian employers of some of these folks - I assume the majority of them to be Class A - may not feel similarly constrained.

Career suicide by unprofessional off-duty behavior.

Professional conduct outside of profession,

Certain jobs require a high level of skill and a high level of trust from both employers and the public. For employees working in those types of positions, it’s possible that off-duty behaviour can call into question that trust, if it demonstrates poor judgment. And if an employer no longer has confidence that an employee has the judgment to perform a job of high skill and responsibility, the result could be dismissal.
 
Yet we had a certain CDS who was breaking a lot of rules and very little happened...... Why do the guys lower down get worse?
The simple answer is that there are far more people above them that can enforce the rules.
 
Yet we had a certain CDS who was breaking a lot of rules and very little happened...... Why do the guys lower down get worse?
Maybe that's where CPCC needs to focus their efforts, but that potentially would be career suicide for senior officers/GOFOs there who rely on the GOFOs above them for selection for promotion.
 
Although, the one thing I have always found interesting is people in the C-of-C trying to say that Class A reservists are subject to the CSD 100% of the time, basically telling us that we have been mislead by what is stated in the CSD.

The ARes pension does not reflect that status in the slightest, of course ;)
 
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