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Many school boards are loathe to surrender / sell any real property.
Army Reserve Restructuring
- Thread starter FJAG
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Many school boards are loathe to surrender / sell any real property.
Brad Sallows
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Exactly. Demographics change. Schools not repurposed are often enough demolished.
PrairieFella
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I struggle with the premise there is an empty, serviceable school in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, etc. A quick google found me articles about problems with overcrowded schools in Calgary, Edmonton and Halifax, without even scrolling. If they are empty, there is probably a reason. There would be no benefit moving from one under-maintained, crumbling building into another. At least the armouries are purpose built for the role we use them for. A more realistic choice would be a repurposed warehouse or industrial space.
Possibly but a lot are not interested in the carrying cost of having empty buildings.
In 2017, a bunch of schools went up for sale here.
The CAF should take advantage of existing infrastructure if it won’t build new ones.
Overcrowding is normally due to location and where the kids are and the schools in those areas. Meanwhile other schools are empty or half full for political reasons.
And a lot of armouries were purpose built with very different training and logistical needs than what is required today.
daftandbarmy
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FJAG
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That's exactly right. What happens is that schools were built in neighbourhoods that were being populated by people with families and that needed schooling. There comes a time in some neighbourhoods where the kids age out as young families seek elsewhere to live. The previous neighbourhoods no longer have enough children to require a full school so they get bussed elsewhere while the old school gets shut down.
I live in a small town of about 15,000 outside London with several schools here but one mid-sixties school has stood empty for years being occasionally rented out to small manufacturing businesses. It has land attached to it and is big enough to support a full company sized subunit of say an infantry or transport battalion. There is no unit here now (there once was when the town was much smaller.) and it really isn't necessary because its a short drive to London anyway. There are many schools, old warehouses, even shopping centres around that can no longer do the job they were designed for because the demographics have changed. All of those have the land you need for military gear and parking for the troops which our century-old urban armouries do not have. Some are "fixable" others are a "tear down" but they could be useable.
The real problem isn't that the facilities aren't available. It's that the CAF is not looking for them. There is, to my knowledge, no planning process that is looking at how to maximize long term reserve force capabilities. Everything is a short range effort which looks at tweaking the system to solve a specific immediate need rather than long term systemic planning.
Ottawa has only two real functioning ARES armouries. One that has a great location but is wholly unsuited to house two of the CBGs bigger units. The rest of the units are housed in iso trailers at uplands and a haunted hospital.That's exactly right. What happens is that schools were built in neighbourhoods that were being populated by people with families and that needed schooling. There comes a time in some neighbourhoods where the kids age out as young families seek elsewhere to live. The previous neighbourhoods no longer have enough children to require a full school so they get bussed elsewhere while the old school gets shut down.
I live in a small town of about 15,000 outside London with several schools here but one mid-sixties school has stood empty for years being occasionally rented out to small manufacturing businesses. It has land attached to it and is big enough to support a full company sized subunit of say an infantry or transport battalion. There is no unit here now (there once was when the town was much smaller.) and it really isn't necessary because its a short drive to London anyway. There are many schools, old warehouses, even shopping centres around that can no longer do the job they were designed for because the demographics have changed. All of those have the land you need for military gear and parking for the troops which our century-old urban armouries do not have. Some are "fixable" others are a "tear down" but they could be useable.
The real problem isn't that the facilities aren't available. It's that the CAF is not looking for them. There is, to my knowledge, no planning process that is looking at how to maximize long term reserve force capabilities. Everything is a short range effort which looks at tweaking the system to solve a specific immediate need rather than long term systemic planning.
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The hospital is on the divestment list (still / again).
PrairieFella
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https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26337100/700-king-edward-st-winnipeg
These types of building are infinitely more common and could probably house an entire CBG worth of personnel nevermind the local garrison Included are purpose built loading docks for QMs, offices for ORs and shops and outbuildings for workshops, labs, etc. In a budget constrained reality, consolidation of locations is probably necessary.
These types of building are infinitely more common and could probably house an entire CBG worth of personnel nevermind the local garrison Included are purpose built loading docks for QMs, offices for ORs and shops and outbuildings for workshops, labs, etc. In a budget constrained reality, consolidation of locations is probably necessary.
FJAG
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33 CBG is IMHO a significantly under performing brigade. When I looked at it I concluded it needed repurposing as a 30/70 divisional sustainment brigade primarily supporting southern Ontario and I did the following:
1) move the brigade HQ to Borden as a divisional level sustainment brigade with a peacetime role of providing special troops, transportation, logistics, and medical augmentation to NSE's and CSS elements on operational deployments. It's 9 bns/regts would be located primarily, but not exclusively in the Montreal to Windsor corridor.
2) GGFG (10/90) reduced to a platoon sized cadre in Ottawa with the sole responsibility of providing public duties.
3) CHofO (30/70) as an urban battalion with bn HQ and a RegF rifle coy in Petawawa and one ARes light (CHoC) coy and one ARes (GGFG) para coy and a CS coy in Ottawa moved to under command of 2 Light Bde in Petawawa
4) H&PER (10/90 security force light bn) ARes Bn with HQ and Coy in Peterborough and coy in each of Kingston (PWOR reduced to a coy), Brockville (BRif reduced to coy), Cornwall (SD&GHigh reduced to coy), North Bay (AlgR reduced to coy) and Sudbury (2IRofC reduced to coy) all under command of 33 Sust Bde Borden)
5) 33 Svc Bn reduced to a coy of mixed log and maint under command of 2 Bde Svc Bn in Petawawa
6) 30 Fd Regt (30/70) replaces 2 RCHA in Petawawa (2 RCHA goes to Supp List) and comes under command of 38 Arty Bde in Shilo. 1 x 100/0 RegF OP battery, 1 x 100/0 RegF M777 battery + 1 x 100/0 RegF STA troop in Petawawa, 2 x 10/90 LG1/M777 batteries, one each in Ottawa and Pembroke (42 Fd), 1 X 10/90 STA Bty Sault Ste Marie (49Fd).
7) 33 Sig Regt reduced to a squadron and under command of 1 Sigs Regt in Kingston (currently CJSRegt) to be placed under command of 6 CCSB
8) 33 Engr Regt reduced to squadron under command 2 Combat Engr Regt which will be under 6 CCSB
As an aside, 2 Light Bde in Petawawa consists of a 70/30 Recce Regt (Hq + 2 x 100/0 Sqns from RCD + 1 x 10/90 sqn from R de Hull), two (100/0) RegF airborne battalions (1 RCR and 1 PPCLI - both in Pet) the aforesaid 30/70 CHofC and 2 Bde Service Bn. (30 Fd RCA maintains a 100/0 OP Bty and M777 bty and STA troop primarily to support 2 Bde and 2 Combat Engr Regt maintains a 100/0 RegF Fd Sqn primarily to support 2 Bde.
Long story short, 33 Bde reforms as a sustainment bde out of Borden, keeps some of its units but spins off others to 2 Light Bde Pet an 6 CCSB Kingston
Halifax Tar
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33 CBG is IMHO a significantly under performing brigade. When I looked at it I concluded it needed repurposing as a 30/70 divisional sustainment brigade primarily supporting southern Ontario and I did the following:
1) move the brigade HQ to Borden as a divisional level sustainment brigade with a peacetime role of providing special troops, transportation, logistics, and medical augmentation to NSE's and CSS elements on operational deployments. It's 9 bns/regts would be located primarily, but not exclusively in the Montreal to Windsor corridor.
2) GGFG (10/90) reduced to a platoon sized cadre in Ottawa with the sole responsibility of providing public duties.
3) CHofO (30/70) as an urban battalion with bn HQ and a RegF rifle coy in Petawawa and one ARes light (CHoC) coy and one ARes (GGFG) para coy and a CS coy in Ottawa moved to under command of 2 Light Bde in Petawawa
4) H&PER (10/90 security force light bn) ARes Bn with HQ and Coy in Peterborough and coy in each of Kingston (PWOR reduced to a coy), Brockville (BRif reduced to coy), Cornwall (SD&GHigh reduced to coy), North Bay (AlgR reduced to coy) and Sudbury (2IRofC reduced to coy) all under command of 33 Sust Bde Borden)
5) 33 Svc Bn reduced to a coy of mixed log and maint under command of 2 Bde Svc Bn in Petawawa
6) 30 Fd Regt (30/70) replaces 2 RCHA in Petawawa (2 RCHA goes to Supp List) and comes under command of 38 Arty Bde in Shilo. 1 x 100/0 RegF OP battery, 1 x 100/0 RegF M777 battery + 1 x 100/0 RegF STA troop in Petawawa, 2 x 10/90 LG1/M777 batteries, one each in Ottawa and Pembroke (42 Fd), 1 X 10/90 STA Bty Sault Ste Marie (49Fd).
7) 33 Sig Regt reduced to a squadron and under command of 1 Sigs Regt in Kingston (currently CJSRegt) to be placed under command of 6 CCSB
8) 33 Engr Regt reduced to squadron under command 2 Combat Engr Regt which will be under 6 CCSB
As an aside, 2 Light Bde in Petawawa consists of a 70/30 Recce Regt (Hq + 2 x 100/0 Sqns from RCD + 1 x 10/90 sqn from R de Hull), two (100/0) RegF airborne battalions (1 RCR and 1 PPCLI - both in Pet) the aforesaid 30/70 CHofC and 2 Bde Service Bn. (30 Fd RCA maintains a 100/0 OP Bty and M777 bty and STA troop primarily to support 2 Bde and 2 Combat Engr Regt maintains a 100/0 RegF Fd Sqn primarily to support 2 Bde.
Long story short, 33 Bde reforms as a sustainment bde out of Borden, keeps some of its units but spins off others to 2 Light Bde Pet an 6 CCSB Kingston
Id be interested to see your outcome of this analysis for 36 CBG.
CountDC
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Regardless of what they would like there is a need to do something to better house the military units as the old horse era buildings no longer meet the needs. We need new with proper compounds and training areas so the units can operate properly. Even in my time the difference between deuce, ML and the HL everyone has now makes a big difference in needs. Add in the larger fleets with the addition of the blue and a unit has a much larger foot print just in vehicles alone. Consideration has to be given to MOT for the members to attend the training. If located in an area where everyone would drive then ensure parking is available. if it is an area where you can expect the use of public transit then ensure the transit is available. Will this happen? I am doubtful.
PrairieFella
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And 38 CBG lol
Brad Sallows
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Serviceable schools are empty because parents tend to demand schools reasonably close to their homes, and eventually some schools end up in neighbourhoods with not very many parents. Other schools have to add portable classrooms (a problem where I currently live) as densification increases. The cost of maintaining unused or underused facilities is a drain.
An advantage of old schools is the immediate availability of land for other structures.
After the armoury in Richmond was built for (then) 12 Svc Bn, a common comment by first-time visitors was to the effect of how much it looked like a high school. A front office area,teacher's lounge messes, classrooms, a gym, a shop area.
An advantage of old schools is the immediate availability of land for other structures.
After the armoury in Richmond was built for (then) 12 Svc Bn, a common comment by first-time visitors was to the effect of how much it looked like a high school. A front office area,
FJAG
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36 CBG is a better performer than 33 CBG with some 1,600 v 1,200 pers. In my restructuring I take both 36 CBG (at roughly 1,600) and 37 CBG (at roughly 1,400) and have turned it into a single 36 light brigade (minus) operating out of Halifax. It consists of:
1) 30/70 8 CH recce regiment (a HQ and a 100/0 sqn from the RCD in Gagetown, a 10/90 squadron from 8 CH out of Moncton with a troop in PEI (PEIR), a 10/90 sqn in Halifax (1H and HalRif)
2) a 30/70 PLF reinforced amphibious/light infantry bn out of Halifax (a bn HQ and 100/0 rifle coy from 2 RCR in Halifax, a 10/90 rifle coy in Halifax (PLF), a 10/90 rifle coy in Sydney (CB Hghr), a 10/90 rifle coy in Amherst (NS Hghr), a 10/90 CS coy in Aldershot (WNSR) (2 RCR goes to the Supp order of battle)
3) a 30/70 RNBR light infantry battalion out of Frederickton/Gagetown a bn HQ and 100/0 rifle coy (formerly 2 RCR) in Gagetown, a 10/90 CS coy from Fredericton (RNBR) a 10/90 rifle coy from Moncton and area (NSRegt), and a 10/90 rifle coy from NFLD (1 &2 RNfldR)
4) 5 CRPG in Halifax
5) a 30/70 36 bde svc bn (-) with companies from both 36 and 37 Svc Bns, headquartered in Halifax with coys and pls throughout the Maritimes (RegF PYs from RSS and 5 Svc Bn)
6) 36 Sigs Regt reduced to a brigade Sigs Sqn for 36 CLBG.
7) 36 and 37 CBG's arty elements fall under 38 Arty Bde Shilo, and their engineer units become part of 4 ESR which comes under 6 CCSB, Kingston.
38 CBG is a tough nut.
You'll have to understand that I form two divisions - a more ready division (2 Cdn Div) out of Montreal which has as part of it the 70/30 high readiness 2 CLBG in Pet and the 70/30 medium readiness 5 CMBG (Valcartier) (as well as the low readiness 30/70 34 CLBG in Quebec, the 36 CLBG(-) in Halifax, the 39th Cdn Inf Regt in Victoria and the 6 CCSB in Kingston. 2 Cdn Div is tasked with defence of Canada and deployments generally anywhere (such as peacekeeping, failed states etc)
The other division, 1 Cdn Div (which I'm moving to Winnipeg to be close to the RCAF, maintains a low readiness mech force designed to do rotations to Latvia and general mobilization for European conflict. It has six brigades - a brigade headquarters and the prepositioned equipment for an armoured (or for @KevinB a mech) brigade in Latvia (3 CABG) and three CABGs in Canada (1 CABG Edmonton, 32 CABG Toronto, 31 CABG London) it laso has 38 Arty Bde in Shilo and 33 Sustainment Bde Borden.
31 and 32 CABGs are easy to organize but training is a challenge and as such is based quite a bit on flyover exercises to Latvia. 1 CABG is a problem child in that it needs to take its resources from across the whole of the Prairies to get its mass. 38 and 41 CBGs combined have around 2,400 folks (@dapaterson can provide better numbers - mine are old) - any way, 2,400 reservists, even in a 30/70 construct are barely enough to man a CABG, even one that gets its divisional arty and engineers from the divisional arty and combat support brigades.
So, with that said, I made 38 CBG the 1 Cdn Div (and the whole Cdn army's single arty bde (as an aside, I find its a bit large but I'm trying to resist creating a second arty bde because I doubt that we will ever deploy even a single full arty bde and I want my headquarters to have a deployable function, not merely an administrative or training one.
38 CAB's headquarters moves to Shilo. Its components are:
1) 1 RCHA remains there as a 30/70 regt with a HQ and a 100/0 OP Battery and a 100/0 M777 bty. It receives additional batteries from the various Prairie arty units (10 Fd, 20 Fd, 26 Fd, 20 Bty, 116 Bty).
2) There are 7 additional 30/70 regiments (7Tor Toronto, 56 Fd Brantford, 30 Fd Ottawa/Pet, 2 Fd Montreal, 5 RALC Valcartier, 1 Fd Halifax (HIMARS) and 4 AD Regt.)
3) a 30/70 FGH divisional recce regiment (a HQ and 100/0 recce sqn in Shilo, a 10/90 recce sqn in Winnipeg (FGH) and a 10/90 recce sqn in Moose Jaw (SaskD).
4) a 30/70 bde svc bn in Winnipeg/Shilo with RegF coming from 1 Svc and ARes from 38 Svc Bn Winnipeg and Regina/Saskatoon
5) 38 Sigs Regt will become 38 CABs sig squadron.
38 CBGs infantry bns will all come under 1 CABGs two mechanized battalions (LEdmR Edmonton and RWpgR Winnipeg)
Manitoba and N Ont bns will go to the RWpgR which will have a Hq and 100/0 mech rifle coy in Shilo (from 2 PPCLI which will go to the Supp Order of battle) and a total of three 10/90 companies from the RWpgR and Camerons in Winnipeg and the LSSR in Thunder Bay. (all of whom need to do some serious recruiting to get their numbers up.
Sask infantry (RRegR and NSaskR) will provide 10/90 coys to the LEdmR together with the Cal Hghrs and a coy from the 2 PPCLI
Anyway. That's my thoughts.
markppcli
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Single Bn in Winnipeg. 26 Fd reduced to Bty strength supporting 1 RCHA. Svc Bn reduced to Coy strength as part of a prairie Sv Bn structure and heavily linked into the existing infrastructure at the base.
markppcli
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Where does 16 LAVs come from?36 CBG is a better performer than 33 CBG with some 1,600 v 1,200 pers. In my restructuring I take both 36 CBG (at roughly 1,600) and 37 CBG (at roughly 1,400) and have turned it into a single 36 light brigade (minus) operating out of Halifax. It consists of:
1) 30/70 8 CH recce regiment (a HQ and a 100/0 sqn from the RCD in Gagetown, a 10/90 squadron from 8 CH out of Moncton with a troop in PEI (PEIR), a 10/90 sqn in Halifax (1H and HalRif)
2) a 30/70 PLF reinforced amphibious/light infantry bn out of Halifax (a bn HQ and 100/0 rifle coy from 2 RCR in Halifax, a 10/90 rifle coy in Halifax (PLF), a 10/90 rifle coy in Sydney (CB Hghr), a 10/90 rifle coy in Amherst (NS Hghr), a 10/90 CS coy in Aldershot (WNSR) (2 RCR goes to the Supp order of battle)
3) a 30/70 RNBR light infantry battalion out of Frederickton/Gagetown a bn HQ and 100/0 rifle coy (formerly 2 RCR) in Gagetown, a 10/90 CS coy from Fredericton (RNBR) a 10/90 rifle coy from Moncton and area (NSRegt), and a 10/90 rifle coy from NFLD (1 &2 RNfldR)
4) 5 CRPG in Halifax
5) a 30/70 36 bde svc bn (-) with companies from both 36 and 37 Svc Bns, headquartered in Halifax with coys and pls throughout the Maritimes (RegF PYs from RSS and 5 Svc Bn)
6) 36 Sigs Regt reduced to a brigade Sigs Sqn for 36 CLBG.
7) 36 and 37 CBG's arty elements fall under 38 Arty Bde Shilo, and their engineer units become part of 4 ESR which comes under 6 CCSB, Kingston.
38 CBG is a tough nut.
You'll have to understand that I form two divisions - a more ready division (2 Cdn Div) out of Montreal which has as part of it the 70/30 high readiness 2 CLBG in Pet and the 70/30 medium readiness 5 CMBG (Valcartier) (as well as the low readiness 30/70 34 CLBG in Quebec, the 36 CLBG(-) in Halifax, the 39th Cdn Inf Regt in Victoria and the 6 CCSB in Kingston. 2 Cdn Div is tasked with defence of Canada and deployments generally anywhere (such as peacekeeping, failed states etc)
The other division, 1 Cdn Div (which I'm moving to Winnipeg to be close to the RCAF, maintains a low readiness mech force designed to do rotations to Latvia and general mobilization for European conflict. It has six brigades - a brigade headquarters and the prepositioned equipment for an armoured (or for @KevinB a mech) brigade in Latvia (3 CABG) and three CABGs in Canada (1 CABG Edmonton, 32 CABG Toronto, 31 CABG London) it laso has 38 Arty Bde in Shilo and 33 Sustainment Bde Borden.
View attachment 85086
31 and 32 CABGs are easy to organize but training is a challenge and as such is based quite a bit on flyover exercises to Latvia. 1 CABG is a problem child in that it needs to take its resources from across the whole of the Prairies to get its mass. 38 and 41 CBGs combined have around 2,400 folks (@dapaterson can provide better numbers - mine are old) - any way, 2,400 reservists, even in a 30/70 construct are barely enough to man a CABG, even one that gets its divisional arty and engineers from the divisional arty and combat support brigades.
So, with that said, I made 38 CBG the 1 Cdn Div (and the whole Cdn army's single arty bde (as an aside, I find its a bit large but I'm trying to resist creating a second arty bde because I doubt that we will ever deploy even a single full arty bde and I want my headquarters to have a deployable function, not merely an administrative or training one.
38 CAB's headquarters moves to Shilo. Its components are:
1) 1 RCHA remains there as a 30/70 regt with a HQ and a 100/0 OP Battery and a 100/0 M777 bty. It receives additional batteries from the various Prairie arty units (10 Fd, 20 Fd, 26 Fd, 20 Bty, 116 Bty).
2) There are 7 additional 30/70 regiments (7Tor Toronto, 56 Fd Brantford, 30 Fd Ottawa/Pet, 2 Fd Montreal, 5 RALC Valcartier, 1 Fd Halifax (HIMARS) and 4 AD Regt.)
3) a 30/70 FGH divisional recce regiment (a HQ and 100/0 recce sqn in Shilo, a 10/90 recce sqn in Winnipeg (FGH) and a 10/90 recce sqn in Moose Jaw (SaskD).
4) a 30/70 bde svc bn in Winnipeg/Shilo with RegF coming from 1 Svc and ARes from 38 Svc Bn Winnipeg and Regina/Saskatoon
5) 38 Sigs Regt will become 38 CABs sig squadron.
38 CBGs infantry bns will all come under 1 CABGs two mechanized battalions (LEdmR Edmonton and RWpgR Winnipeg)
Manitoba and N Ont bns will go to the RWpgR which will have a Hq and 100/0 mech rifle coy in Shilo (from 2 PPCLI which will go to the Supp Order of battle) and a total of three 10/90 companies from the RWpgR and Camerons in Winnipeg and the LSSR in Thunder Bay. (all of whom need to do some serious recruiting to get their numbers up.
Sask infantry (RRegR and NSaskR) will provide 10/90 coys to the LEdmR together with the Cal Hghrs and a coy from the 2 PPCLI
Anyway. That's my thoughts.
daftandbarmy
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FJAG
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Second part of the construct. We start with 6 LAV bns (18 rifle coys). 4 LAV coys go to Latvia (one LAV bn complete plus one LAV coy for the eFB bn) as prepositioned stock. The other 14 LAV coys are generally split up with one company's worth going to a 30/70 mech bn and two companies worth to a 70/30 bn. So a 30/70 bn gets 14 LAVs for the company and 2 for Bn HQ - I haven't thrown ACSVs into the mix.
Remember that this is trying to redistribute existing equipment with an end state to provide training equipment more broadly across the country with the further aim of having three CABG's of RegF and ARes to man on rotation and flyover to Latvia into a full bde. Also note that I put this together before Canada actually committed a brigade and it started taking shape. That's why there is a mech flyover bn rather than a light one and why there isn't a Dutch bn. Same for artillery. I was predicting we would provide an arty regt HQ and one battery and other countries would provide an additional two batteries.
There are 10 LAV Coys committed to 1 Div (incl Latvia stocks); 5 Lav Coys to 2 Div's 5 CMBG); the remaining 3 LAV coys worth are training stocks at divisional trg centres (Wainwright, Shilo, Meaford, Valcartier, Gagetown)
It was just some rough math thrown on the chart as a gross error check. Don't take them too seriously as there is some guesswork and assumption there.
There are two places where the numbers do not work.
The first is that there are numerous RegF and ARes units that simply do not have the numbers to fill their establishments even though there are more than sufficient PYs and paid strength for them. That's a recruiting and retention issue and not an organization issue.
The second is in CSS.
There are sufficient CSS PYs and Paid strength to man the brigade service bns core log, tpt, maint coys but not their Forwards Support Companies (FSC) for the brigade's manoeuvre bns. You should note that I don't think that the current Canadian Svc Bn and manoeuvre bn's CS coy construct will work for 30/70 brigades. The service support across the brigade must be more centrally controlled and be capable of resource balancing and technical mentoring. I think that the American Brigade Support Battalion (BSB) organization with a distribution coy (S&T coy), a maintenance coy, an FSC for every manoeuvre bn and a medical coy (read fd ambulance) would be more practical and flexible.
In the napkin force above, the PY RegF cores for these FSCs come from the RegF CSS coys btys etc but there are no equivalent CSS elements in the ARes inf, arty etc bns. However, since I am reducing many of the ARes units to just coy strength, I'm predicting that there will be enough ARes paid strength to fill out the FSCs for the manoeuvre brigades, 38 CAB and 6 CSSB as well as the additional CSS bns being created for 33 Sust Bde. It's just not a calculation I've done yet because my access to real CSS strength is pretty poor and muddled with base support elements as well. It's just an assumption that the numbers will work out. It's not an assumption, however, that building this CSS structure is a very major recruiting and training effort that is nigh unto impossible to do under the current system. Since CSS is vital, there is no option but that the system has to change.
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