Army Reserve Restructuring

[Ex Ranger Instructor]

Being a military force gives the CAF a lot of flexibility as to what to do with the Rangers. If it wanted to expand it further inland , it could. If it wanted to take more training and become more "combat capable," it could. If it wanted to make it more of a "home guard," it could. Personally, I think they fit into a good niche albeit I think it would be wise to expand them further into areas where we frequently deploy on Op Lentus and start using them as a source of domestic ops augmentees. In my own napkin force I have the four CRPGs OPCON to the two coastal regiments and the light and medium brigades responsible for northern operations. They have nothing whatsoever to do with the primary expeditionary brigades.

We have used them on Op Lentus numerous times already. They've provided great service, but there are integration issues that we need to continue working on.

 

[markppcli]

Or an RAF Regiment type organization that focuses on securing/ managing airfields/ airheads and other logistics nodes as a firm base for other operations as part of a more expeditionary capable RCAF

Talk F35 security requirements to me

 

[Colin Parkinson]

On the subject of Stingers — what do you want to kill in Canadian airspace that you can’t kill with a Canadian F-35, an American F-22 from Alaska, or in a pinch, an SM-2 off a ship? Stingers aren’t optimized for plinking small UAS, cruise missiles, or Chinese high altitude balloons, and if a VDV division pours across the Bering, Red Dawn style, then their helicopters are the least of your concerns.

Helicopters off a ship that we either failed to detect or never responded to. In the North I would never assume that you will have air cover or support.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I was more thinking of folks to be attached to them - as opposed to changing the nature of the CRPG themselves.
But perhaps just better off with a CSOR Det

This is why I propose platoon sized elements that are trained both with Ranger skills and Combat skills. Based in the North where there is enough interest and population to support both the existing Ranger infrastructure and the new addition. The key is to keeping them Arctic combat focused and not trying to make them just like the southern units.

 

[Brad Sallows]

This is why I propose platoon sized elements that are trained both with Ranger skills and Combat skills. Based in the North where there is enough interest and population to support both the existing Ranger infrastructure and the new addition. The key is to keeping them Arctic combat focused and not trying to make them just like the southern units.

Nothing wrong with having a couple of army Res F units in the two or three communities that could sustain one. The value of Rangers is that they know how to live in that part of the world, which means they can advise soldiers from elsewhere how to survive.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Nothing wrong with having a couple of army Res F units in the two or three communities that could sustain one. The value of Rangers is that they know how to live in that part of the world, which means they can advise soldiers from elsewhere how to survive.

The idea is to create some domestic combat capability up there, I suspect a lot of their exercises will airfield and infrastructure defense. Supporting Ranger patrols. Exercising with the AOP's and CCG.

 

[daftandbarmy]

This is why I propose platoon sized elements that are trained both with Ranger skills and Combat skills. Based in the North where there is enough interest and population to support both the existing Ranger infrastructure and the new addition. The key is to keeping them Arctic combat focused and not trying to make them just like the southern units.

There's probably a great argument for somehow integrating the Rangers more closely with CANSOFCOMM.

Connecting the ones who train indigenous populations with a small groups of 'militarized' indigenous folks, domestically, might help raise the skills bar for both the SOF and Rangers

 

[Kirkhill]

The idea is to create some domestic combat capability up there, I suspect a lot of their exercises will airfield and infrastructure defense. Supporting Ranger patrols. Exercising with the AOP's and CCG.

Why are we so reluctant to countenance training platoons of southerners to defend northern VPs and airfields? The south has people. The north doesn't. The southern units keep complaining that they want a real job. Airfield defence. Port defence. VPs and Comms. These are all real jobs. The threat of invasion may be small - hard to say that with a straight face when we are importing 430,000 people in 3 months* - but the threat of sabotage and disruption is not small.

I like @GR66 's notion for rationalizing our existing LAV Battalions, and fully support the development of the Reserves as a professional augmentation force for the Regs but the north needs attention.

cf https://www.realcleardefense.com/ar...arctic_capabilities_and_capacity_1000134.html


The Americans are paying attention to the north. We need to at least show an interest.


*

Canada’s population booms by 430K over 3 months. What’s behind the spike? - National | Globalnews.ca

Canada came close to breaking the highest population growth rate in any quarter this July to September when it reported 430,635 new residents in the country.

globalnews.ca

 

[FJAG]

The southern units keep complaining that they want a real job. Airfield defence. Port defence. VPs and Comms. These are all real jobs.

I'm not sure when you were last an 18-year old. It's been a long time since I've been one but I can still tell you that doing VP and comms and port and airfield defence up north would not have been my idea of a real job. Then, as now, I would have thought of it as a a crappy job the full-timers didn't want to do. I'd have gone NES pretty quickly.

 

[Kirkhill]

I'm not sure when you were last an 18-year old. It's been a long time since I've been one but I can still tell you that doing VP and comms and port and airfield defence up north would not have been my idea of a real job. Then, as now, I would have thought of it as a a crappy job the full-timers didn't want to do. I'd have gone NES pretty quickly.

Here' s the thing though. It needs doing and there is money

 

[quadrapiper]

I'm not sure when you were last an 18-year old. It's been a long time since I've been one but I can still tell you that doing VP and comms and port and airfield defence up north would not have been my idea of a real job. Then, as now, I would have thought of it as a a crappy job the full-timers didn't want to do. I'd have gone NES pretty quickly.

What if it's a rotation out of an Arctic company of each Regular battalion? Especially one whose Southern home is somewhere not an enormous morale drain.

 

[Kirkhill]

I'm not sure when you were last an 18-year old. It's been a long time since I've been one but I can still tell you that doing VP and comms and port and airfield defence up north would not have been my idea of a real job. Then, as now, I would have thought of it as a a crappy job the full-timers didn't want to do. I'd have gone NES pretty quickly.

It was a while back since I was 18 but....

At 16 I was chucking hay for a buck an hour then for the next few summers I was scrubbing out milk tanks, melting ice, chopping up plastic milk bottles, packing butter, getting soaked in lye solutions, busting knuckles tearing down pumps and separators, cutting my hands on stainless steel threads, taking graveyard shifts....

It paid for my education and a bit of skiing.

It is amazing what a little bit of filthy lucre will do to motivate a youngster. And to be honest some Arctic bragging rights wouldn't have gone amiss either.

 

[FJAG]

It was a while back since I was 18 but....

At 16 I was chucking hay for a buck an hour then for the next few summers I was scrubbing out milk tanks, melting ice, chopping up plastic milk bottles, packing butter, getting soaked in lye solutions, busting knuckles tearing down pumps and separators, cutting my hands on stainless steel threads, taking graveyard shifts....

It paid for my education and a bit of skiing.

It is amazing what a little bit of filthy lucre will do to motivate a youngster. And to be honest some Arctic bragging rights wouldn't have gone amiss either.

You can earn more at Superstore without any drama by picking groceries off the shelf for drive up shoppers. The government will not pay me enough filthy lucre to get me do guard duties at a northern radar station or port. And I'm a lot more adventurous and tolerant of doing crappy work than today's youth.

 

[GR66]

You can earn more at Superstore without any drama by picking groceries off the shelf for drive up shoppers. The government will not pay me enough filthy lucre to get me do guard duties at a northern radar station or port. And I'm a lot more adventurous and tolerant of doing crappy work than today's youth.

We haven't felt the need to deploy troops so far to guard these locations so why would we now? But having troops deploy to the North to exercise with the Rangers and learn how to operate in that environment would be much more interesting...and put those troops in good stead should the time come that we feel the need to deploy troops up there to guard those locations.

 

[FJAG]

We haven't felt the need to deploy troops so far to guard these locations so why would we now? But having troops deploy to the North to exercise with the Rangers and learn how to operate in that environment would be much more interesting...and put those troops in good stead should the time come that we feel the need to deploy troops up there to guard those locations.

Sorry. We're talking apples and oranges here. @Kirkhill made a suggestion up thread:

Why are we so reluctant to countenance training platoons of southerners to defend northern VPs and airfields? The south has people. The north doesn't. The southern units keep complaining that they want a real job. Airfield defence. Port defence. VPs and Comms. These are all real jobs. The threat of invasion may be small - hard to say that with a straight face when we are importing 430,000 people in 3 months* - but the threat of sabotage and disruption is not small.

I have absolutely nothing against training ARes in the north with Rangers - I have problems with making the guarding of northern VPs etc an enduring and specific "job" for the ARes as its a recruiting and retention killer.

 

[Kirkhill]

Sorry. We're talking apples and oranges here. @Kirkhill made a suggestion up thread:


I have absolutely nothing against training ARes in the north with Rangers - I have problems with making the guarding of northern VPs etc an enduring and specific "job" for the ARes as its a recruiting and retention killer.

Couple of points

First

Southerners can be trained in Vital Point, Port and Airfield Defence in their home localities. They don't need to go north to do that.

But there may come a day where a FOL needs to be secured in which case having people that could conduct such an operation could come in handy. Especially if everybody else is in Latvia or on their way over.

Second

Is Canada getting to point where it needs to invite Hengest and Horsa to help?

Jings.

 

[FJAG]

Couple of points

First

Southerners can be trained in Vital Point, Port and Airfield Defence in their home localities. They don't need to go north to do that.

But there may come a day where a FOL needs to be secured in which case having people that could conduct such an operation could come in handy. Especially if everybody else is in Latvia or on their way over.

Second

Is Canada getting to point where it needs to invite Hengest and Horsa to help?

Jings.

The northern part is really incidental. It's the mundane tasks of VP security etc that is the problem. As a focus of training it's boring as hell. I was in 3 RCHA when we did it during the Octoberfest of 1970 and again in 1976 for the Olympics. (Just think of 8 hour shifts in the halls of a hotel).

There's no doubt in my mind that we will need to send troops to do those jobs during an emergency and we need to plan for them. I see nothing wrong with that. Where I see the problem is making it a tasking for ARes units so that they end up training year-in and year-out on it. Troops trained for regular combat operations can do that job if tasked. All that I'm saying is don't go so far as to make it a unit's enduring mission. By all means emphasize winter warfare for everyone and take as many as we can up north on combat exercises with Rangers and give them skills in Arctic warfare but for heaven's sake make it worthwhile and interesting combat training. That's why they joined. That's why they'll stay in.

Look at my napkin force. I've allocated the better part of a division to the defence of Canada - including the entire coast line. That doesn't mean I want any one of them training as VP and port and airfield guards day after day. 3 RCHA's training for VP and VIP security was a twenty-four hour period that included flying to Montreal, an ROE briefing, drawing vehicles and ammunition, a recce of my sites, an OGp and deploying the first shift. It ain't rocket science if you've trained for your combat role. Stay with general combat roles. It engages the young soldiers and prepares them for pretty much anything they may be tasked to do.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Couple of points

First

Southerners can be trained in Vital Point, Port and Airfield Defence in their home localities. They don't need to go north to do that.

But there may come a day where a FOL needs to be secured in which case having people that could conduct such an operation could come in handy. Especially if everybody else is in Latvia or on their way over.

Second

Is Canada getting to point where it needs to invite Hengest and Horsa to help?

Jings.

The Mod Plod enter the chat... again...

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[kratz]

The NAVRES Port security experiment (2006-2013) was canceled mainly due to:

• Optics / Public perception,
• Liabilities (when, not if), and
• Seriously under-resourced, unsupported.

Without those concerns being properly addressed, the ARres would not fare much better.

 

[markppcli]

Here' s the thing though. It needs doing and there is money

Does it need doing ? When was the last time we required physical, on the ground, armed security of a northern air field ?


I’m pretty firm in my belief that the Canadian Army is not organized, and nor should it be organized, or expected to defend Canadian territory. It is an expeditionary army whose job is the maintenance of global stability. The defence of Canada comes from a) the maintenance of that stability and global rule of law and b) our allies and our commitments to them. The Air Force and Navy have commitments to our territorial security and that makes sense.

To @FJAG ’s point, no one is excited by security jobs. Even a defensive is frankly boring and miserable training. Further any competent rifle platoon can guard a gate, a bridge, or an air field if they are tasked to do so. What would be gained by down grading training ?

Rather than inventing a task for the reserves, the restructure of the reserves should be looked at through the lenses of Canada’s existing operational requirements, and it likely future needs.