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Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC

Remius

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Eye In The Sky said:
Sounds to me like something major is failing at places like RMC in types 1 and 2.  If you don't understand, or have a 'discipline goal' identified in your training and training establishment, well...

Maybe there is too much mentorship and leadership being conducted by "senior OCdts" or candidates...bring the leadership 'off the hanger floor' could be part of the solution?

When I was recruiting over 10 years ago we would be accompanied by an RMC rep.  And a cadet or two as well.  It boggled my mind what the RMC rep was spewing.  Talking about the College Pillars and that the “military” pillar was not that important as cadets would get that in their trades training and after college.  He told us that they were trying to make the college more attractive to applicants by portraying as a normal university.

I could also get I to the varsity sports BS the college was recruiting for and the lowering of academic standards to get them in.

Not sure if it has changed since them but RMC recruiting and selection I believe has been taken out of CFRG I think.

They had priority issues back then.  Sounds like it hasn’t changed.
 

Eye In The Sky

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What/who would the RCM *Rep* be?

I've been watching the CAF become the "civilitary" for a while now and think no good has, or will, come from it.  Thankfully, the worse it gets the closer I am to CRA...
 

Halifax Tar

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Lumber said:
How? Alcohol is forbidden in the dorms, yet one time I had a full size keg in my room for a couple days, hiding under a blanket looking like an end table.

I suppose you could ban cadets from drinking AT ALL, and expel everyone who did it anyway in town at a bar or Queen's party, but then you'd have only 6 cadets left.

I fail to see the problem... We over produce officers as it is.
 

Remius

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Eye In The Sky said:
What/who would the RCM *Rep* be?

I've been watching the CAF become the "civilitary" for a while now and think no good has, or will, come from it.  Thankfully, the worse it gets the closer I am to CRA...

I forget his title. If I remember he was some sort of academic guidance advisor of some sort.  Was a civy.  We actually filed a complaint about what he was saying.  Our CO passed it on but I doubt it was taken seriously.
 

MJP

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Eye In The Sky said:
The core issue here is a DISCIPLINE one;  not to confuse discipline with punishment/disciplinary actions which can result from a lack of discipline.

On my Senior Leaders Course (now called ILP) back in '02, we discussed the (then) 4 main types of discipline in the military:

1.  Imposed discipline - example the indoc period at CFLRS.  THere is a timeline, and a goal, which is to get people to the #2 type.

2.  Group discipline - when members of the group start conforming to the way the group acts.  This is great *if* Comd sets a clear expected standard of conduct, and informs members of what will happen if they do not obey/follow the standard.  Key to this is for it to be monitored and guided by Leadership (NCOs, WOs, and Officers). 

3.  Habits and rituals - the next type (level), where people start doing things because "that's the way they are done".  Them simply become part of the routine.  Example, clearing a weapon when you pick it up, polishing your ankle boots before Remembrance Day.

and the final goal, the END STATE...

4. Self-discipline - doing the right thing, the right way, at the right time, even if no one is watching.  You're going on a Remembrance Day parade 'back home', you'll be the only person there in uniform...you polish your boots and sort your DEUs out to the same standard as if you were parading with your unit and going to be inspected prior.

Sounds to me like something major is failing at places like RMC in types 1 and 2.  If you don't understand, or have a 'discipline goal' identified in your training and training establishment, well...

Maybe there is too much mentorship and leadership being conducted by "senior OCdts" or candidates...bring the leadership 'off the hanger floor' could be part of the solution?

I would argue the root issue is culture, one where people feel they can act in manner contrary to our ethos. Discipline both individual and group is only one piece of the pie and should not be confused with culture. Using discipline as forcing mechanism only gets you compliance, not the change that is need to stamp out such issues and have a inclusive culture were people are treated properly. 
 

Eye In The Sky

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MJP said:
I would argue the root issue is culture, one where people feel they can act in manner contrary to our ethos. Discipline both individual and group is only one piece of the pie and should not be confused with culture. Using discipline as forcing mechanism only gets you compliance, not the change that is need to stamp out such issues and have a inclusive culture were people are treated properly.

Good points; that culture needs to be part of the institutional 'standard' that people see, follow and emulate as time goes on (Group/habits & rituals) but compliance is the 'minimum standard' and even that seems...thin...at that institution by what I read in the above report links.

If I were a WO at RMC, I'd be telling the CWO and Comd "I'll take alittle of that effin compliance to start...." 

 

Eye In The Sky

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Remius said:
I forget his title. If I remember he was some sort of academic guidance advisor of some sort.  Was a civy.  We actually filed a complaint about what he was saying.  Our CO passed it on but I doubt it was taken seriously.

I think I've highlighted the problem;  RMC should not present itself as 'any other university'.  Again...'civilitary' issues in the CAF...
 

MJP

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Eye In The Sky said:
If I were a WO at RMC, I'd be telling the CWO and Comd "I'll take alittle of that effin compliance to start...."

There is always room for "compliance" actions!

 

SupersonicMax

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Eye In The Sky said:
It is not also unacceptable for the 4.4% of men who were sexually assaulted? 

I am pretty sure this isn’t what I said. Just like supporting BLM doesn’t mean you don’t support other lives...
 

Eye In The Sky

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SupersonicMax said:
I am pretty sure this isn’t what I said.

Your post did seem to emphasize what you wrote in the second sentence...

Just like supporting BLM doesn’t mean you don’t support other lives...

Not touching that one... 8)
 

SupersonicMax

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Eye In The Sky said:
Your post did seem to emphasize what you wrote in the second sentence...

Given that 11% of females and 4% of males at civilian universities reported being victims of sexual assault, it is fair to emphasize the one that is more than twice as prevalent as in civilian institutions.
 

Eaglelord17

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SupersonicMax said:
Given that 11% of females and 4% of males at civilian universities reported being victims of sexual assault, it is fair to emphasize the one that is more than twice as prevalent as in civilian institutions.

Another possibility is that maybe women in the military might be more willing to report it, especially post OP Honour, vs. a civilian university where there likely isn't seen much benefit to reporting and more social ramifications. Not saying that is or isn't the case, just that it could possibly be a factor.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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To throw some cold water on the howling mob, if i were asked these same questions I would be one of the 4.4%.  Unwanted sexual touching, too close, etc.....doesn't mean for a second I didn't want to get my monkey punched that night, just that I was hoping it was the cute red head and not the blond.  But the blond put her hand on my leg to guage how it was going to go....yes or no question in court?....yes I was touched unwantingly that night.  But do I feel like I was "sexually assaulted"?  Never in my life...now if it persisted  different story of course.

And for the no alcohol people, do you really think its better when they're in a place of command that everyone discovers they can't drink without being really really stupid?  I introduced controlled alcohol to my Daughters fairly early so that they didn't have to find out it can be a bad thing after its too late.
 

dapaterson

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Dimsum said:
The RCAF may disagree...

The RCAF is responsible for Pilot and ACSO production.  If their training system can't keep up with one of the lowest attrition rates in NATO, then may I suggest that they need to engage in a brief flurry of introspection followed by action to fix the road to wings?

(The question of how many aircrew are in non-flying positions is another awkward conversation the RCAF would probably rather avoid, too...)
 

Navy_Pete

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For context on the article, I don't think the gender distribution at RMC or CMR is comparable to a normal university. Based on a study I found with a quick google search, male/female ratio is something in the range of 70/30 to 80/20.

https://cradpdf.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/PDFS/unc316/p807310_A1b.pdf

Not really surprised if it's a sausage fest that behaviour is worse, as it's easier to have a bro culture when you outnumber women 4 to 1. At a typical university where the majority of students are female, they are more of outnumbered little groups (but obviously bad behaviour still occurs).

From my own personal experience when I was a Training officer, the RMC grads were usually pretty obvious as they typically were lagging behind in basic life skills compared to ROTP or DEOs. Also once folks are past OFP it's usually difficult to find any real difference performance wise. Not really sure what the stats are for promotion rate etc, but not really sure what advantage, if any, the CAF has for maintaining the program. Stuff like this doesn't help, and the really weird separate court martial system they run is a bit of a mess.

We don't need new rules or processes; just enforce the existing ones. If we are going to have a CAF university, they should be better behaved then civvy equivalents. But we can't treat them like children; they are adults that signed up to the code of conduct, so just apply the consequences if they mess up.  This isn't rocket surgery or advanced leadership, it should be literally the bare minimum standard.



 

BeyondTheNow

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Navy_Pete said:
For context on the article, I don't think the gender distribution at RMC or CMR is comparable to a normal university. Based on a study I found with a quick google search, male/female ratio is something in the range of 70/30 to 80/20.

https://cradpdf.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/PDFS/unc316/p807310_A1b.pdf

Not really surprised if it's a sausage fest that behaviour is worse, as it's easier to have a bro culture when you outnumber women 4 to 1. At a typical university where the majority of students are female, they are more of outnumbered little groups (but obviously bad behaviour still occurs).

From my own personal experience when I was a Training officer, the RMC grads were usually pretty obvious as they typically were lagging behind in basic life skills compared to ROTP or DEOs. Also once folks are past OFP it's usually difficult to find any real difference performance wise. Not really sure what the stats are for promotion rate etc, but not really sure what advantage, if any, the CAF has for maintaining the program. Stuff like this doesn't help, and the really weird separate court martial system they run is a bit of a mess.

We don't need new rules or processes; just enforce the existing ones. If we are going to have a CAF university, they should be better behaved then civvy equivalents. But we can't treat them like children; they are adults that signed up to the code of conduct, so just apply the consequences if they mess up.  This isn't rocket surgery or advanced leadership, it should be literally the bare minimum standard.

Bingo. And that mentality is magnified even more simply by way of ‘Hey look, I’m a RMC/CMR grad/student.’ Some of the egos are in desperate need of being taken down a notch. (They’d come over to CFLRS for whatever reason and couldn’t get through a sentence without inserting where they were from during regular conversation, as well as during pick-up lines. ::) )

 

daftandbarmy

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Eaglelord17 said:
Another possibility is that maybe women in the military might be more willing to report it, especially post OP Honour, vs. a civilian university where there likely isn't seen much benefit to reporting and more social ramifications. Not saying that is or isn't the case, just that it could possibly be a factor.

The opposite was apparently an issue in a previous sexual assault scandal at RMC in 2015:

Sex assault scandals rock prestigious Royal Military College in Kingston

Col. Michel Drapeau said the fact that the complaint was made via a third party speaks to a culture in which young cadets feel unable to report harassment and abuse

Drapeau, a law professor who is representing a young woman at the centre of a sexual assault court martial, is now raising the alarm about the very culture of the school. Amid reports of a second investigation into an alleged sexual assault, Drapeau said he has told school officials that nearly a dozen women have complained to him anonymously about sexual harassment on campus.

Among recent events at RMC:

• The ongoing court martial of Officer Cadet Alex Whitehead, who has been accused of raping one cadet and walking naked into a shower stall of another.

Julie Lalonde: “Someone looked me up and down and said: ‘I might listen to you if you weren’t a woman.'”

• A new allegation revealed this week, in which a “third party” complained about an alleged sexual assault on May 13, a day before the school’s convocation ceremony.

• An Officer Cadet, J.C. Scott, was issued a $2,000 fine and severe reprimand for assault, after allegations of sexual assault.

• A workshop coordinator said she was belittled and subject to sexual harassment while she was trying to conduct a seminar on the topic last October.

Earlier this month, a former Supreme Court of Canada judge warned the problems aren’t confined to RMC. Marie Deschamps wrote a damning report warning of a sexualized culture in the Canadian Forces where harassment is commonplace and victims are unwilling to complain for fear of being ostracized, demoted or transferred.

Drapeau said he’s heard from about 10 women at the college who have relayed stories of sexual harassment and minor assault.

“They’re indoctrinated right from the get-go to be respectful and obedient to anybody who has any authority over them which, in some ways, inculcates them (to the idea) that you shall not complain. You shall not speak,” he said.

Drapeau said he sent the school’s top brass a letter about the complaints back in 2013.

The most recent alleged assault took place on May 13 and was reported to Military Police by a “third party” on the same date, said Capt. Joanna Labonte in a statement.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/sex-assault-scandals-rock-prestigious-royal-military-college-in-kingston
 
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