Attrition Rates within the Infantry

[OldSolduer]

After reading through the thread I was left with a sense of discontent on the part of the posters, both with the system itself and with the CoC.

Having had the opportunity to speak with family members who survived both World Wars (I have many that did not) I am left to wonder if they would approve of the way the Infantry is being managed *assuming this thread is any indication of the current state of affairs*.

I hope you realize the infantry is far different than the infantry of even 10 years ago. What worked in WW2 or Korea will not work now, nor will the management style of when I was a young private.

SO......what do you suggest?

 

[Sprinting Thistle]

Interesting juxtaposition.  This thread was started in 2001 and just this year the infantry rifle companies are over strength by about 20 - 40 soldiers each.  As well a special VOT was opened up to offer infanteers the opportunity to transfer out to reduce numbers.  So, perhaps a comparison of factual data on attrition rates in 2001 against 2010 would provide clarity.  Or not.

 

[SeanNewman]

Attrition rates are still quite high, it's just that our intake numbers are even higher.

It's healthy to have a bucket of water with a steady small hole leaking out of the bottom and a small stream pouring it at the top, but I would suggest that what we have in the last few years is a medium-to-large hole in the bottom but a firehose at the top trying to fill the bucket.

This results in water getting splashed everywhere such as a 300-man Warrior Company in Saint Jean filled with broken and fat people, the quality of one-on-one instruction being far below what it should be, and instructors running courses through the meat grinder one after the other to their personal detriment and that of the corps as well because nobody has time to perform SME tasks or update doctrine.

Thankfully this is now tapering off, but it has also resulted in a massive surge of new promotions upwards, which is both a blessing and a curse.  Junior soldiers who show leadership potential should be fast-tracked and it's great for them, but people who should have stayed Cpls also made MCpl and then Sgt too quickly.

 

[Ravanosh]

Such as?

I'd heard soldiers ***** once.....OK, maybe twice...about things, without offering up possible solutions. While they had some credibility by virtue of actually being in the military, you do see the value of constructive criticism, no? While you may have modified your earlier post "for the sake of diplomacy and clarity," you made no changes to add utility.

So please, feel free to provide some practical advice to address our glaring flaws.  :nod:

Alright, here's a few practical ideas that might help improve retention:

a) Implement a regular "speak-freely" hour, where soldiers can express their concerns and offer solutions to their commanders as equals. Ideas for new approaches to training, improving efficiency and use of time, etc. could all be brought up at these meetings

b) Increase the visibility of members of the CoC, so that even the lowliest of soldiers can put a face to the highest links in that chain. This could be done by occasionally assigning a higher ranking officer than usual to oversee field exercises (when the situation allows) thus giving soldiers the opportunity to interact with superiors they would not otherwise meet

c) Ensure that soldiers do not feel as though their talents are being wasted. Give them every possible opportunity to demonstrate their abilities. If a soldier feels under-valued or over-qualified for his rank, he is likely considering a different career

Part of the problem seems to be that some NCO's and CO's forget that once out of uniform all members of the CF are technically equal (even if formality dictates otherwise). Anything that helps to remedy this situation would undoubtedly reduce attrition rates.

Also, because of the recession, new NCM's are more qualified and knowledgable than ever (in their fields). They can tell when their time is being mismanaged or their value squandered, and they are less likely to "grin and bear it" than the soldiers of the past.

 

[Burrows]

a) Implement a regular "speak-freely" hour, where soldiers can express their concerns and offer solutions to their commanders as equals. Ideas for new approaches to training, improving efficiency and use of time, etc. could all be brought up at these meetings

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLJ8ILIE780

b) Increase the visibility of members of the CoC, so that even the lowliest of soldiers can put a face to the highest links in that chain. This could be done by assigning a higher ranking officer than usual to oversee field exercises, thus giving soldiers the opportunity to interact with superiors they would not otherwise meet

  Are you qualified to profess on this topic? Do you KNOW how different CF units operate?

Part of the problem seems to be that some NCO's and CO's forget that once out of uniform all members of the CF are equal. Anything that helps to remedy this situation would undoubtedly reduce attrition rates.

Wrong.  In a social situation it is still customary to refer to someone your senior formally until told otherwise.  Just because your CO is out of uniform doesn't mean you get to call him Bill.  Equal in terms of rights, but not in terms of status afforded by hierarchy.


Some people are just morons, and that doesn't change between the general populace and the CF.

Also, because of the recession, new NCM's are more qualified and knowledgable than ever. They can tell when their time is being mismanaged or their value squandered, and they are less likely to "grin and bear it" than the soldiers of the past.

I fail to see how an economic down-turn has led to anyone becoming more qualified and knowledgeable in the arts of war.  The unemployment of GM employees does not (to me) make CF Pers more capable in any way.


Consider this an unofficial warning.  You're bordering warning territory - quit talking down to people on subjects you know nothing or little about.


Kyle Burrows
Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Ravanosh]

I fail to see how an economic down-turn has led to anyone becoming more qualified and knowledgeable in the arts of war.  The unemployment of GM employees does not (to me) make CF Pers more capable in any way.

I meant that NCM's have more public sector qualifications and the knowledge that comes along with that. This may not be applicable to the arts of war directly. My point is that young soldiers have opportunities outside of the CF that are drawing them away, as they find suitable work in their civilian fields. Also, they may have preconceptions of their value in the public sector that they carry with them into the CF.

I laughed quite a bit at your link, I love that Python skit... "Learning the PIANO?!?!"

I take it thats your way of saying a "speak-freely" hour would devolve into a comedy act?

I'll stop commenting in this thread now.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Ravanosh, to put it simply, most of the information in the first pages of this thread, and that on which you are basing your assumptions, are out of date.  The current (i.e., 2010) "attrition situation" in the Regular Force infantry is that the CF is encouraging experienced infantry soldiers to move into other trades because we have more trained soldiers than we have authorized positions for them. Secondly, if you follow threads in the recruiting section of these forums you will also see that we have a steady flow of eager applicants looking to join the infantry. Attrition is not a current problem. There will always be some who will complain that the CF didn't do enough to "encourage" them to stay in the infantry (or other trades) but that has less to do with the CF today than it speaks of their expectations, it gives them a "reason" other than accepting they left by their own choice when they found the infantry wasn't what they expected.

 

[fireman1867]

Ravanosh I think your comments have some merit. The point about the level of experience of the average applicant off the street  is a known issue within the CF and has different ramifications depending on Service/Branch/Trade etc. both positive and negative. I would be willing to bet a dollar that the average age of applicant has increased because of the recession.

Your other points speak to leadership styles which I have seen used and also come back to the lack of Ha-Ha factor that members who have had life experience outside the CF before enrolling just don't have -they have an uncanny way of calling BS.

 

[OldSolduer]

Alright, here's a few practical ideas that might help improve retention:

Part of the problem seems to be that some NCO's and CO's forget that once out of uniform all members of the CF are technically equal (even if formality dictates otherwise). Anything that helps to remedy this situation would undoubtedly reduce attrition rates.

Wrong. I refer to my boss as "Sir" when I see him off the job. And I been around a while. The Code of Service Discipline applies 24/7 for Reg Force  and Reserves on CL B and Cl C.

I don't know who or where you get your info from, but you may need to check it out prior to posting on here. Your credibility is not that high.

 

[aesop081]

Alright, here's a few practical ideas that might help improve retention:

Maybe, just maybe, you should spent a bit of time in the CF first.......

a) Implement a regular "speak-freely" hour, where soldiers can express their concerns and offer solutions to their commanders as equals. Ideas for new approaches to training, improving efficiency and use of time, etc. could all be brought up at these meetings

Most units have CO's hour at various intervals throughout the year. You would know that your idea isnt new and is already being done, if you were actualy in the CF.

b) Increase the visibility of members of the CoC, so that even the lowliest of soldiers can put a face to the highest links in that chain. This could be done by occasionally assigning a higher ranking officer than usual to oversee field exercises (when the situation allows) thus giving soldiers the opportunity to interact with superiors they would not otherwise meet

I see every member of my chain every day. I even get days i am trapped in a steel tube for 10hours with my CO.

c) Ensure that soldiers do not feel as though their talents are being wasted. Give them every possible opportunity to demonstrate their abilities. If a soldier feels under-valued or over-qualified for his rank, he is likely considering a different career

You say that like we are a bunch of know-nothing NCOs and officers who make this shit up as we go. Sometimes, soldiers are over qualified for their rank..........thats just how it is.

Part of the problem seems to be that some NCO's and CO's forget that once out of uniform all members of the CF are technically equal (even if formality dictates otherwise). Anything that helps to remedy this situation would undoubtedly reduce attrition rates.

As noted, in or out of uniform makes no difference.

new NCM's are more qualified and knowledgable than ever (in their fields).

They sure are, yet many of them still cant figure out how to show up for work on time......

 

[daftandbarmy]

The harder the training, the more the troops will brag.

High attrition in the infantry generally connects to lame training and high proportion of other types of 'non value added' activities, as well as incompetent career/man mangement stuff. Although kit and pay rates and other environmental factors play a role, poor retention (whether regular or reserve) in the infantry is generally caused by poor leadership, usually at the higher levels, in the battalions. Bad COs and RSMs encourage people to find somewhere else to spend their time.

No one wants to be part of a gong show, whether you're in the infantry, another arm or service, or any civvy occupation for that matter.

 

[harry8422]

I'll stop commenting in this thread now."

Good idea!!!

 

[stealthylizard]

I know quite a few getting out because their time in Afghanistan wasn't what they expected it to be, sitting around killing time.  Others had joined just for the opportunity to go overseas, and now they have done that, it's time to get back to the "real world".  Those things can't really be fixed.  Something that should be fixed is the amount of time we spend doing nothing around garrison, and I don't mean by filling it with mundane tasks like scrubbing the walls.  PCF cycles should be run year round 365 days, I realize they can't, due to financial concerns, and lack of instructors, I am just saying they should be.