ATV RECCE TRIALS

[ackland]

I have a few questions with the three year trial the Ont Rs have been undergoing.

Part of the task in off and def ops is the op screen.   How did you configure the vehs (ATVs) into patrols.   As you are aware we currently use two veh patrols with 6 crewman that can sustain observation post ops.   Did you have 6 Atvs in a patrol?

Where does the crew kit like tents,stoves,Nodlr, first aid kit, crew wpn, pots water fuel and rucksacks stow.

Have you operated in -30 and for how long.   Did you tow toboggans and do they have a over snow capability.

What is the fuel consumption rate and/or distance you travel before resupply.

If one of your buddies gets hurt or your ATV goes down can you double up on another Atv.

Are they street legal so you can use them on grid roads and highways and do they have night convoy lamps and lights?   Have you a tarp or covering to get minimal protection in a   chem environment?

I am very interested in this concept.   In winter on the prairies we do one ex in winter with snowmobiles.   We usually leave our kit at a base camp and operate from there in two man crews.   But there is lots of maintenance and repair that has to be done to keep 7   snowmobiles going for even a weekend of tough going.   Might there be a parallel with the ATV?  

On another note I drove a ferret and it was one quiet veh but a little cramped and only a two person crew.   But stealthy and a low profile go anywhere tough veh.   I only mention this because in todays tempo of ops I think you need a minumum of 6 pers crews.   I understand the new recce doctrine is calling for an 8 veh troop.   This would give some flexibility in task matrix work.   Would that mean an Atv equivalent troop would be 24 Atvs?

BG

To answer you first Question yes 6 atv's per patrol. One C/C and Two Crewman. One radio per 3 men as a call sign.

We have done no extreme cold weather OP's as we live in Ontario. The winter training was cold thouhg. the new gortex was a god send for those of us who have it.

yes we double up if an ATV goes down and as for feul consumtion it sucks.

No they are not street leagal even though we actualy have CFR's for them.

 

[Gayson]

Personally as an armd crewman in an armd recce regiment, I am looking forward to the g-wagon.

IMO like the iltis we need something small and mobile that also gives us MG suppression abilities.

The iltis for example is small, mobile can take a beating and with easy modification can have a c6 or similar mg mounted.  In QYRANG we use bungie cords to mount a c6 to the hood of each vehicle.  It's not much, but it does allow us to quickly put fire downrange on anything infront of us (giving us the ability to somewhat fire our way quickly out of an ambush).  When we work mounted we remove the super structure form the vehicle and fold the windshield down breaking the boxy shape down a bit, improving visibility and allowing passengers to fire with their rifles.

The g-wagon will allow us to do this with more advantages.  As I understand it (but I could be wrong because I am new to the regiment, CAC being my first ex with the reg) the g-wagon we will be getting will have an MG or other weapon mounted, roof and windows removed and have better performance than the iltis.  I think that for the res level a jeep style vehicle as described above would work best.

I personally would like to see us using a jeep styled vehicle with the super structure removed, have armour on the body of the veh, have a MG or other weapon system mounted, the crew should have c8's (the lenght of the C7 make it difficult to quickly fire somewhat accuratly, especially in the back trying to orient the rifle around the roll bar kit), a 522 set.

Though ATV's are more mobile, there lack of armour and firepower makes them a death trap.  Yes recce crews are suppose to move with as much stealth as possible, and ATV's are good for this, the lack of armour/firepower makes them to killable.  Coming home alive with information that may not be as useful anymore after being seen and fired upon is still better than dying and not bringing back info.

I have to admit, I know nothing about the weasel so I am not going to argue against it much.  I do however, dislike the idea of a tracked vehicle simply because they will most likely leave to much physical evidence of where they have been.


Perhaps an Armoured Crewman with more experience than me could comment?

 

[DOOG]

Greetings J.Gayson..
The C and R version of the G-Wagen will not have removed windows, doors, superstructure etc. The vehicle is hardened/protected and has bullet resistant glsss. From what I have been told by the guys at the School, you can't even roll down the windows. There is a cuploa in the rear where one of the crew can stand and operate whatever type of weapons system they decide to mount. I have seen photos of several different weapons on it..C9, C6, HMG, and I think AGL.
This vehicle will be a tad higher in profile than a stripped down Iltis but then so was a Lynx. Nobody I have talked to knew whether the plan was to put the crew commander in the front or the back. Personally I would choose the back so that the guy who does most of the dismounting could   have access to the best door to get in and out of (front). If the guy in the rear dismounts to do a footy thing, the gun is unmanned, thus no covering fire.

However I am sure some some staff weenie who has never done jeep style recce will come up with a way to make using this vehicle more difficult than it needs to be (I had to get that in, it's my nature).

 

[ackland]

J.Gayson eh..... I've Heard stories about you.

To further on the points made by DOOG the G wason is the perfect example of staff wenneis not looking at the total use of the vehicle. While you are correct about the armoured package and not bieng able to roll down the windows. It will become a very bad vehicle for this reason. How is any one supposed to hear waht is going on around them. All that shiny glass reflecting light. most people will be half way out of the copola and be nice targets. Not a wise choice IMHO.

 

[Gayson]

Stories?  From any ont-R's I know?

 

[ackland]

Stories?   From any ont-R's I know?

No from your staff

 

[Gayson]

Staff from Meaford this past summer?   You've got me interested, nothing bad I hope?


Back on topic.   I am a little dissapointed to read that the C&R version will not have removable doors and top.   I remember reading somewhere that of the 850 G-Wagons purchased, only a little over a hundred of them were getting the armour addon package installed.   I figured that the vehicles with the armour would be going to reg force units before those of us in the mo'.

I'm going to try and find that article.

Edit

here's the article:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/community/mapleleaf/vol_7/vol7_12/712-03.pdf

You need acrobat reader to view this, out of the mapleleaf:

Canadian troops in Kabul have taken
delivery of 60 new Mercedes Benz
G-Wagons and are already putting the
vehicles to good use on patrols.
The first 60 of the 802 G-Wagons
acquired by the Army to form part of its
Light Utility Vehicle Wheeled fleet arrived
in Afghanistan between March 5 and 13.
Dedicated to operationally tasked field
unitsâ ”both Regular and Reserve Forceâ ”
and training establishments, the G-Wagon
will be used to provide tactical transport
in the fields of command and control, liaison,
reconnaissance and military police.
You only need to take one look at the
new 4x4 to appreciate the sharp and
rugged style of the G-Wagon. With its 2.7
litre, 5-cylinder turbocharged diesel
engine, near a ton of plated armour and
bulletproof glass, and almost a half-metre
of ground clearance, it has nothing on
your normal SUV.
Those who had the chance to test drive
it on the 20 km trip from the Kabul airport
to Camp Julien were unanimous:
The G-Wagon is robust, drives smoothly
and leave you with a confident feeling of
security. It has many advantages over
similar vehicles.
One of those advantages is the armour
protection systems kit. Tailor designed so
complete sections of the vehicleâ ”such as
doors and windshieldâ ”can be removed
and replaced by armoured modules, it will
provide NATO level 1 protection against
small arms and protection against hand
grenades and anti-personnel mines.
Additional armoured components are
included to protect the floor, roof and rear
wall of the crew area.
A total of 802 G-Wagons and 160
armour protection systems are being supplied
to the CF by Mercedes Benz Canada
through the $130.4-million contract
awarded in October 2003. In addition,
1 061 militarized commercial off-the-shelf
(MILCOTS) Silverado (4x4) vehicles in
three variantsâ ”basic, cable layers and military
policeâ ”are being acquired from
General Motors and will be distributed to
both Regular and Reserve Force units
across the country to replace the Iltis.
Beyond the 60 G-Wagons already
received by troops deployed in Kabul, an
additional 40 will be delivered to the CF
shortly, and the remainder of the fleet will
be fielded over the next several months to
units in Canada.
Already, the vehicles are put to good
use. They are cruising the streets of Kabul
in lieu of some of the Iltis and LAV III,
giving our personnel a distinct feeling of
safety and a professional look.

Also an article from the DND website. 

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/feature_story/2004/feb04/09-2_f_e.asp

G Wagon to Debut in Afghanistan Mission
By Capt Cindy Tessier

The first 60 Gelaendenwagen vehicles, â Å“G Wagonâ ? for short, produced by Mercedes Benz in Graz, Austria, will be deployed to Afghanistan in March for use during Operation ATHENA. An additional 40 vehicles will be delivered to the CF shortly thereafter and the remainder of the fleet will be fielded over the next several months to units in Canada. Delivery will be completed by August 2005.


Soldiers were given the opportunity to conduct driver and maintainer training on the new G Wagon in Valcartier, prior to their deployment to Afghanistan.
CFB VALCARTIER

A $126-million contract was awarded to Mercedes Benz Canada on October 21, for the procurement of 802 G Wagons and 118 armour protection systems (APS). The contract includes an unfunded option to buy up to 499 additional vehicles and up to 135 additional APS kits at an additional cost of $99.4 millionâ ”an additional 42 APS were purchased under this option in December 2003 for $4.44 million bringing the total number of APS kits to 160.

The G Wagon will be used by operationally tasked field units and training establishments, and will be used by both the Regular and Reserve units to provide tactical transport in the fields of command and control, liaison, reconnaissance and military police.

"Focus of the project team was always to expedite the replacement of the aging Iltis and provide the army with a fully tested and compliant vehicle,â ? said project manager Lieutenant Colonel Jacques Beaudoin. â Å“Due to an opening in the production line and excellent co-operation between the supplier and the government, arrangements have been made to accelerate this procurement allowing for early delivery of 100 vehicles with armour protection systems.â ?

The APS kits, designed to protect the vehicle's crew compartment, will provide NATO level 1 protection against small arms and protection against hand grenades and anti-personnel mines. The kits are a tailored designed package based on a modular approach whereby complete sections of the vehicle are removed, such as the doors and front windshield, and replaced by armoured modules. Additional armoured components are included to protect the floor, roof and rear wall of the crew area.

The 802 G Wagons will form part of the Army's Light Utility Vehicle Wheeled (LUVW) fleet, acquired to replace the 19-year old Iltis. Additionally, 1 061 militarized commercial off-the-shelf (MILCOTS) Silverado (4x4) vehicles in three variantsâ ”basic, cable layers and military policeâ ”are being acquired from General Motors, which will also be distributed to both Regular and Reserve units across the country. Sustainability and maintainability of this fleet will be readily available through the local GM dealership network. Fielding of the MILCOTS fleet commenced in October 2003 and will be completed by August 2004.

It is important to note that the Canadian G Wagon, while similar to its German counterpart the Wolf, has not been given an official name designation and until such time, will be known as the G Wagon.

G Wagon Technical Specifications

VARIANTS: 3 (Basic, Command and Reconnaissance, Military Police)
TYPE: 4 Pax Station Wagon
ENGINE: 5-cylinders
DRIVETRAIN: 4X4 permanent all-wheel drive, 5-speed automatic
TIRES: Michelin XZL 8.25R16 with optional run-flat inserts.
FORDING ABILITY: 600mm
GROUND CLEARANCE: 43.9cm
SIDE SLOPE ANGLE: 30 º
APPROACH ANGLE: 40 º
GRADEABILITY: 60 percent
PAYLOAD: 1 500 kg Max (incl APS)


Capt Tessier is with Army PA

Perhaps armoured recce units in the reserves would be getting G-Wagons with armour package's installed, the reg Armour units have LAV's in their recce sqn's.

 

[ackland]

Well each Ontario armd rgimanet is geting 6 except for the ONTR as we are the only armd unit in our brigade.

The stories come from a certan Cpl instructor of yours.

 

[Gayson]

I heard that us rangers were suppose to get some of our iltis.  When that happens is another story. . .


A certain cpl?  Things are starting to come to perspective now. . . 

 

[ackland]

Into perspective how so?

 

[Gayson]

I think I know what cpl your talking about.  A ranger, first letter of last name starts with an L, is 3 letters long?

 

[ackland]

Nope but he is a good friend of mine.

 

[Gayson]

does his name start with a B?

Did he get his jump wings?

 

[ackland]

No

 

[George Wallace]

Perhaps armoured recce units in the reserves would be getting G-Wagons with armour package's installed, the reg Armour units have LAV's in their recce sqn's.

A couple of things:

Why would a Reserve Recce Unit in Canada need the armour package?

That would be for deployments to 'hostile environments'. 

What Reg Recce Unit uses LAVs for Recce?

The Regs have the Coyote for "Surveillance", but no LAVs for Recce.

Years ago, before we got the Coyote, I wrote in the Armour Bulletin (1990) that the proposal to replace the Lynx with the wheeled Coyote or Cougar was inadequate.  One of the reasons I gave, and it will apply to a GWagen with a hatch in the rear for a MG, is the fact that the CC in the Turret was located to far to the rear of the vehicle and would not have the vision to properly conduct Blind Corner or Crest drills without completely exposing the vehicle.  The driver would be able to see around corners and over hills before the commander.  Totally a poor choice of vehicles.  Ten years later, a Cpl wrote in the Armour Bulletin on how great this vehicle was.  I chaulked that up to lack of experience.

GW

 

[Gayson]

The Coyote is a LAV.   that's why it is called LAV 25 Coyote.

Some would consider (atleast me) Surveillance to be recce considering the crew would have to drive out somewhere within an objective to observe it with the onboard equipment.

Also, I did not say reserve units need the armour package, which is why I was surprised to learn the doors and top could not be removed normally.   If we were going to get armour packages the doors and top would be to heavy to easly be removed making the option to remove them irrelevant to me (thus causing me to not post about the doors and top at all).

Also I agree with you about keeping the CC or atleast the mounted MG at the front.  Having the front 2 crewmembers in a jeep vulnerable at the crest of a hill like that is dumb. 

I haven't been with the unit long, so I could be wrong. 

 

[ackland]

The Coyote is a LAV.   that's why it is called LAV 25 Coyote.

Some would consider (atleast me) Surveillance to be recce considering the crew would have to drive out somewhere within an objective to observe it with the onboard equipment.

Also, I did not say reserve units need the armour package, which is why I was surprised to learn the doors and top could not be removed normally.   If we were going to get armour packages the doors and top would be to heavy to easly be removed making the option to remove them irrelevant to me (thus causing me to not post about the doors and top at all).

Also I agree with you about keeping the CC or atleast the mounted MG at the front.   Having the front 2 crewmembers in a jeep vulnerable at the crest of a hill like that is dumb.  

I haven't been with the unit long, so I could be wrong.    

The people in this post know what a coyote is thanks.

The reason in an iltis that the comander some times sits in the rear is it is alot easier for the observer to get out of the front to go and clear a culvert and or provide security.


I haven't been with the unit long, so I could be wrong. 

You are correct with this statement

 

[Gayson]

The lav statement was directed at Mr Wallace.

I meant no offence to anyone of course.

 

[Slim]

OF all the people on this board Mr Wallace does NOT need to be told what a LAV or anything else is.

More listening, less talking.

 

[Gayson]

seen.

I've seem to have jammed my foot in my mouth here. 

I meant no disrespect to the posters here and I apologize if I have offended anyone.