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Aug 2011: Marines Implicated in Suicide of Harry Lew in AFG

daftandbarmy said:
I rest my case!  ;D

I don't get it. Is that a shot at my former leadership? If so, it must be nice to see the world of soldiering through the eyes of a WOG. 2 hour shifts are bare minimum and that is in Canada on a field ex. Given the option of doing 2 hours on 2 hours off all day and night or doing 8 hours on 8 hours off and actually getting to sleep and take off your boots for a bit, everyone always chooses the latter option. In fact, I would consider it to be very poor leadership if you forced the 2 hour shifts on your troops.
 
The 2 hour shifts could be acceptable in a scenario when you are constantly changing positions. 8 on, 8 off could have the unintended consequence of screwing half of your troops over if they're always moving when its rack time. In a static position, there shouldn't be an issue with shifts at 8 hours, as long as a second person is there.
 
So I guess all of my unit had poor leadership and discipline... We only did 2 hour shifts our less...

Damn it, what a way to find out we all suck!
 
I can't speak to a watch tower, having never stood in one.  However, in the Navy the Watch on Deck may be on duty for four hours, but in each position for only a half hour at a time (i.e. every half hour the positions rotate) to help keep everyone alert.
 
HULK_011 said:
So I guess all of my unit had poor leadership and discipline... We only did 2 hour shifts our less...

Damn it, what a way to find out we all suck!

Reading comprehension. Get some please. I said if you have the option of 2 hours on 2 off or 8 on 8 off, then its a no brainer. If you have enough people that 2 hours or less is able to give everyone reasonable time off then by all means do it. Overseas, you rarely have that luxury.
 
Pusser said:
I can't speak to a watch tower, having never stood in one.  However, in the Navy the Watch on Deck may be on duty for four hours, but in each position for only a half hour at a time (i.e. every half hour the positions rotate) to help keep everyone alert.

We tried that for a short bit, but realized leaving a tower unoccupied for 10 minutes every hour was not acceptable. I say 10 minutes cause we had 4 posts we manned, so the guy from tower 1 goes to 2, 2 to 3, 3 to 4, then 4 to 1 so its quite a bit of time. The Taliban were watching us constantly so it would have been a no brainer for them to wait til like 3am when everyone was asleep, the guy leaves tower 1 they know they have at least 10 minutes to sneak to where we sleep and kill everyone before anyone knows what's happening.
 
Sythen said:
We tried that for a short bit, but realized leaving a tower unoccupied for 10 minutes every hour was not acceptable. I say 10 minutes cause we had 4 posts we manned, so the guy from tower 1 goes to 2, 2 to 3, 3 to 4, then 4 to 1 so its quite a bit of time. The Taliban were watching us constantly so it would have been a no brainer for them to wait til like 3am when everyone was asleep, the guy leaves tower 1 they know they have at least 10 minutes to sneak to where we sleep and kill everyone before anyone knows what's happening.

We never leave a post unmanned (would really suck to be the guy who falls overboard when the lifebouy sentry moves up to the helm, not to mention leaving the helm unmanned...).  We also work a spare into the watch who starts the rotation.  No one leaves one position until properly relieved.  There is also a Petty Officer of the Watch who constantly goes around checking on each position.
 
Pusser said:
We never leave a post unmanned (would really suck to be the guy who falls overboard when the lifebouy sentry moves up to the helm, not to mention leaving the helm unmanned...).  We also work a spare into the watch who starts the rotation.  No one leaves one position until properly relieved.  There is also a Petty Officer of the Watch who constantly goes around checking on each position.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply I was criticizing the way you did it there, just wanted to say the reason we weren't able to. To put an extra person on towers to do the rotating meant it was that much manpower to actually man the towers. At one point for 3 days we had 12 people in our COP. Figure 4 posts that need to be manned, even the WO was taking shifts. All 4 towers each had 1 person, but also a field phone and everyone was well within ear shot of each other.
 
Sarcasm. Detect it.

Situation always dictates is obvious. But having the option of 2 hours on then 4 hours off, vice 8 hours on.. id take the latter. I dont know how anyone can not become complacent through boredom, heat or just being dog tired after 8 hours. One can only stare at the OCS, the Thermal of the 25 or some ugly piece of train through NVG's for so long before the green monster comes out.  And I think a great deal of people on this site (including myself) know what its like to be on shift in Afghanistan. Luxuries not included.
 
HULK_011 said:
I dont know how anyone can not become complacent through boredom, heat or just being dog tired after 8 hours. One can only stare at the OCS, the Thermal of the 25 or some ugly piece of train through NVG's for so long before the green monster comes out.

In the end, you man up and do your job. I won't say it was easy because it wasn't, it sucked every time but no one joins the military for an easy job. Which brings me kind of back on topic.

This kid obviously had some problems with discipline. In my opinion what the article says they did is not that excessive. I don't think I would personally do all that to him, but what it looks like to me is the section leadership tried to sort it out at the lowest possible level. If he decided to end his life because of this, that was his choice. I do understand how his leadership must be punished, but labeling this as "hazing" I believe is sensational media at its best. If one of my fellow soldiers caught me sleeping at my post, whether in Canada or overseas the LEAST I would expect is a couple kicks and some remedial and very unpleasant PT.
 
Do you need physical abuse? I think the PT should be more than sufficient to sort an individual out. Kicking them in the back doesn't solve anything. Extra PT just says good section-level discipline to me, but when you cross that line of striking your subordinates in a less than motivating way, there's an issue. I mean, its real easy to play "armchair section commander" but the modern military doesn't take people out behind the woodshed anymore.
 
PuckChaser said:
Do you need physical abuse? I think the PT should be more than sufficient to sort an individual out. Kicking them in the back doesn't solve anything. Extra PT just says good section-level discipline to me, but when you cross that line of striking your subordinates in a less than motivating way, there's an issue. I mean, its real easy to play "armchair section commander" but the modern military doesn't take people out behind the woodshed anymore.

I wasn't there, so I don't know. But I figure the kicks were to actually wake him up, since he was kicked in the back.. If you're gonna kick someone who is upright and alert, in the back doesn't make much sense. People are trying to portray this as a behind the woodshed, shady style discipline. My opinion, albeit based of VERY limited info is that its not what it was at all. Just take 2 seconds to picture this in your mind.
 
PuckChaser said:
Extra PT just says good section-level discipline to me, but when you cross that line of striking your subordinates in a less than motivating way, there's an issue.
More of an issue if one were to get peers to join in on any punishment.
 
People should just quit speculating and muddying the waters, ESPECIALLY since they weren't there.
 
Bumped with recent info - remember, we haven't heard anywhere near all the details, and all are presumed innocent until proven guilty:
.... the Marine Corps announced Wednesday that three Marines now face court-martial on charges of hazing a fellow Marine, from Santa Clara, so badly that he shot himself to death in a foxhole in Afghanistan.  Lance Cpl. Harry Lew's suicide stunned family and friends, who learned the 21-year-old wrote a farewell note to his mother just hours after his fellow Marines punished him for falling asleep on duty in April.  The military's action will send three of Lew's combat mates to a general court-martial -- the military equivalent to a trial court -- for the extremely unusual charge .... The three Marines have yet to face any disciplinary action, and it's unclear what punishment they would face if convicted by a military panel. In the only other similar case in recent years, two Army soldiers received several months in confinement and a third was fined for hazing an Ohio soldier who committed suicide .... No trial date has been set ....
mercuryews.com, 27 Oct 11

Article clipping edited to remove dopey, idiotic "Few Good Men" references  ::)
 
One of the cases seems to be wrapping up:
One of three Hawaii-based Marines accused of hazing a fellow Marine who later committed suicide in Afghanistan will face a special court martial next week, the Marine Corps said Tuesday.

Lance Cpl. Jacob Jacoby had originally been due to face a general court martial for allegedly hazing Lance Cpl. Harry Lew in the hours before Lew killed himself April 3.

Instead, the Marine Corps says Jacoby's case "will be disposed of" at a special court martial, which is a forum for less serious crimes in the military justice system. The trial is scheduled to be held Monday at Kaneohe Bay.

The move is the result of an agreement with the convening authority, Brig. Gen. Frederick Padilla, the commander of the 3rd Marine Division, said Marine Corps Forces Pacific spokesman Lt. Col. Curtis Hill.

Cases against the other two accused — Sgt. Benjamin E. Johns and Lance Cpl. Carlos Orozco III — are pending.

Hill said he had no further information on the agreement.

(....)

Most special courts martial consider cases in which service members have been charged with misdemeanors.

The maximum penalties for special courts martial convictions are one year in prison, and hard labor without confinement for up to three months. Those found guilty may also be forced to give up two-thirds of their pay each month for up to one year.

(....)
The Republic (Columbus, Indiana), 25 Jan 12
 
A Hawaii-based Marine lance corporal accused of hazing in Afghanistan is going to jail for 30 days and will have his rank reduced to private first class for punching and kicking a fellow Marine who killed himself shortly afterward.

Navy Capt. Carrie Stephens, the judge in Lance Cpl. Jacob Jacoby’s special court-martial, handed down the sentence after Jacoby, 21, pleaded guilty to assault.

The Marine admitted he punched and kicked Lance Cpl. Harry Lew of Santa Clara, Calif. As part of the plea deal, prosecutors withdrew charges that Jacoby humiliated and threatened Lew.

Stephens said she found no evidence that Jacoby’s abuse of Lew caused Lew to kill himself, and she didn’t take the suicide into account when determining the sentence.

Two other Marines have also been accused of hazing Lew and face courts-martial.

Jacoby said he acted out of anger and frustration that his fellow Marine had repeatedly fallen asleep while on watch for Taliban fighters.

He told the court he wanted to talk to Lew, to find out why he kept falling asleep, and to help him stay awake. But Jacoby said he got angry when Lew spoke to him in a disrespectful manner, even though Lew was putting the lives of the Marines at their patrol base in danger by dozing off.

Before sentencing, Jacoby said he was sorry and that he wanted to take responsibility for his actions.

“I allowed my emotions and frustrations to get the best of me, and acted out against a fellow Marine,” Jacoby said.

(....)

Two other Marines also are accused of hazing Lew before he shot himself with his machine gun in his foxhole. Sgt. Benjamin Johns, the leader of the squad the Marines belonged to, and Lance Cpl. Carlos Orozco III will have their own separate courts-martial later ....
Marine Corps Times, 31 Jan 12
 
The second of three U.S. Marines implicated in a hazing-suicide case is slated to appear next week in a courtroom in Hawaii to stand trial, according to the Honolulu Star-Advertiser.

Sgt. Benjamin E. Johns, 26, is charged with violation of a lawful order for allegedly humiliating and demeaning fellow Marine Lance Cpl. Harry Lew and dereliction for failing to supervise a Marine under his care, the Star-Advertiser reported.

(....)

Johns faces a maximum of 2-1/2 years confinement, dishonorable discharge and forfeiture of pay and allowances if convicted of all charges, the Star-Advertiser reported ....
Stars & Stripes, 2 Feb 12
 
Bump with latest:  squad leader's trial process to begin:
A Marine sergeant accused of hazing another Marine who later committed suicide in Afghanistan will go trial on Monday.

Sgt. Benjamin Johns has been charged with a wrongfully humiliating and demeaning Lance Cpl. Harry Lew, who killed himself on April 3.

Johns, a squad leader, has also charged with dereliction for failing to supervise and ensure the welfare of Marines under his care.

The general court-martial is being held at a Marine base in Kaneohe Bay, the home of the 2nd Battalion, 3rd Marine Division that the accused all are assigned to. Proceedings will start with the selection of a jury ....
Washington Examiner, 5 Feb 12
 
A military jury on Thursday found a Marine sergeant not guilty after authorities charged him with hazing a lance corporal who later committed suicide in Afghanistan. 

The general court-martial panel of three officers and five enlisted Marines deliberated about an hour before announcing their verdict that Sgt. Benjamin Johns was not guilty of violating a lawful order by wrongfully humiliating and demeaning Lance Cpl. Harry Lew. 

Tim Bilecki, Johns’ attorney, said his client feels relieved and exonerated by the outcome. The sergeant told Bilecki the verdict was a victory for Marines and non-commissioned officers. 

Johns will return to regular duty, and is looking forward to training once more, Bilecki said ....
Associated Press via Marine Corps Times, 9 Feb 12
 
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