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"Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"

OTR1 said:
That's precisely what happened in Oz, and the defence minister's days are likely to end over the Christmas/New Year break.

A pity.  :-\

Yes.  The PM supported the MINDEF, but didn't actually say he would keep him on in that position in the cabinet re-shuffle. 

My (admittedly shallow) gripe with the article is that it strikes me as something akin to "look at these guys!  Look what they bought!  Why can't we buy those?"  While yes, our two countries are similar, the fact that we have the US next to us (and the influence of NORAD) is something that won't go away.  Also, Australian military spending hasn't exactly been blowout or trouble-free lately:

http://www.smh.com.au/national/f35-joint-strike-fighter-purchase-a-great-national-scandal-says-coalition-mp-20140616-zs9po.html
http://www.janes.com/article/46784/australia-send-more-experts-to-sort-out-awd-programme

I'm not defending the Canadian government's procurement process and I can see the point of the article to be controversial, but making the Australian process look perfect with all levels of government and industry working hand-in-hand isn't exactly the truth.
 
How would you compare the ADF to the CAF as far as setting investment priorities?  Is it similarly competitive with services fighting over the money and disagreeing on requirements?
 
MCG said:
How would you compare the ADF to the CAF as far as setting investment priorities?  Is it similarly competitive with services fighting over the money and disagreeing on requirements?

In short, yes. 

I think most of our troubles with procurement, retention, etc. can almost be substituted with "ADF" vice "CAF".  However, the ADF seems to be less fearful of Foreign Military Sales (C-17, etc.) which may or may not be Australian-ized. 

I also get this feeling that because the three services are separate (no combined Basic Training, little to no contact with the other services even in what we call "purple" trades), they understand each other even less than our elements understand each other.  This is little less so in the officer world as the ADF Academy (RMC) is Tri-Service. 
 
Matt Fisher builds on his earlier article, bringing out the Canadian defence freeloader perspective.

Canada ‘lives off’ U.S. military protection while Australia forced to fend for itself
Matthew Fisher
National Post
13 Dec 201

CANBERRA — Australia is to spend $30-billion on defence next year.

For Canada to match that, on a per-capita basis, the Harper government would have to dole out close to $42-billion, instead of the planned $20-billion.

Fat chance of that happening, of course. An increase in defence spending of more than $1-billion or $2-billion a year by Ottawa is most unlikely, especially with an election in the offing.

The reason Australia has opened its wallet so wide with little dissent can be summed up in one word: China.

Despite concluding a huge trade deal with Beijing only last month, Australia feels compelled to continue ramping up defence spending because it feels threatened by its proximity to the blue-water navy, and other medium- and long-range strike capabilities Beijing has been quickly building.

Thanks, ironically, to massive amounts of cash China has forked over in exchange for massive amounts of Australian iron ore, Canberra has been buying big, expensive warships and a formidable air attack and logistics capability that dwarf anything Canada’s few hawks could imagine.

To explain the national consensus on making investment in the military a priority, while other government programs have been slashed, Mark Thomson and Andrew Davies of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute (ASPI) point to the Australia-centric world map that dominates the wall of the conference room in their office.

To the north lies the Strait of Malacca, the choke point through which so much global commerce sails. Beyond, and looming over everything is China, with ambitions to dominate the western Pacific and an economy that may or may not become a juggernaut.

Vancouver is only 2,000 kilometres further from China than Brisbane, but the Second World War shaped the Australian psyche in a way Canada never experienced. There were raids by Japanese warplanes and mini-subs, and Australian troops defended their homeland from the Japanese just over the horizon in Papua New Guinea.

Another overarching strategic reality is while Canada borders the United States, Australia is nearly 12,000 km from the West’s global guardian. Like Canada, it joined the U.S. in both world wars and Korea; Canada sat out Vietnam and the second Gulf War, while Australia, despite considerable opposition at home, took part.

“If I lived in the northern approaches to the continental United States, I would probably be very happy spending 1% on defence because at the end of the day what is the worst that can happen?” said Mr. Thomson, ASPI’s economics expert.

Added Mr. Davies, the director of research, “You would have Americans on your territory defending you.”

Neil James, executive director of the Australian Defence Association used blunter language to describe how Canada has ended up being almost dead last among western nations in defence spending, while his country seems destined to end up third, behind the U.S. and Britain.

“In a way, Canada has been a bludger,” he said, using an Australian term used to describe a loafer or sponger. “You live off your bigger neighbour next door.”

Canada gets away with it because “it is inconceivable that the U.S. would ever allow an existential threat to Canada whereas with us, it could happen,” he said.

“Canada and Australia are a lot alike, but geostrategically they are totally different. Until Canada faces a major strategic scare you won’t have a serious debate about defence spending.”

What Australia “has to worry about is remaining serious allies of the United States to encourage them to stay committed to playing a role in our part of the world,” he added. “Buying F-35 [fighter jets] and P-8s [anti-submarine warfare] aircraft is a great way to do that.

“I think a significant mishandling of our relationship with China would carry a political cost. The only thing worse than that would be a mishandling of the strategic relationship with the United States.”

While the security dilemma posed by an ascendant China remains paramount, Australia is also spending tens of billions of dollars on military procurement because, unlike Canada, it is a regional power. Military operations it might have to undertake without U.S. help include dealing with renewed instability in states that are “between fragile and moribund,” such as East Timor, Papua New Guinea, the Solomon Islands and Fiji.

Then there is Indonesia, which has often had serious differences with Australia over Timor and other issues.

“The United States is not going to buy into a fight between Australia and Indonesia,” Mr. Davies said. “But I believe that that is not worth worrying about because these days everyone in Southeast Asia is looking north.”

Still, if problems arise closer to home “and we find ourselves in conflict with one of our neighbouring states, where the United States steps aside, we want to have the ability to comprehensively overmatch them to avoid having them come into conflict with us,” Mr. Thomson said.

“These are not problems that Canada has.”
 
MCG said:
Matt Fisher builds on his earlier article, bringing out the Canadian defence freeloader perspective.

Canada is the New Zealand of the western hemisphere when it comes to defence issues.  We are quite content to sit on the sidelines and let big brother take the lead but love to moan and grow when something doesn't go our way... i.e. Ballistic Missile Defence.
 
I think it will take some serious arctic shenanigans by Russia to even put defense spending on the radar, and I dare not even think what would happen to make it a normal priority.
 
Even if the government did pour more money into defence & came out with a clear direction for the military to take in terms of procurement, our procurement process is so beaurocratic & incompetent it wouldn't make a huge difference anyhow. 

During the Afghan years, under the leadership of people like Hillier & McKay, we were able to procure some great platforms and capabilities at a reasonable cost, because the leadership was there.  We had clear direction in terms of what capabilities the military needed and the leadership supported the efforts not only with the money to move forwards on the projects - but the political assistance in terms of cutting through the red tape for us.  (Want some C-17's?  Sure!  New fleet of Hercs?  Done!  Need some newer model tanks?  We can help with that.  Etc)

Money to support projects is great, and necessary.  But without the leadership to have projects move forwards and not get bogged down in beaurocratic messes, and without the leadership to clearly guide the priorities - the money is almost wasted. 
 
Along somewhat similar lines to Matthew Fisher's second article:

Why Australia Takes Defence Much More Seriously Than Canada
https://cdfai3ds.wordpress.com/2014/12/11/mark-collins-why-australia-takes-defence-much-more-seriously-than-canada/

Mark
Ottawa
 
MarkOttawa said:
Along somewhat similar lines to Matthew Fisher's second article:

Mark
Ottawa

:nod:

Yep, at pretty much everything in that blog post.
 
New defence minister for Oz appointed, in the form of Kevin Andrews.

He can be charitably described as an incompetent and dim Bible-bashing moonbat who shouldn't even be in Cabinet.

If only there was an emoticon for throwing-up.....
 
OTR1 said:
New defence minister for Oz appointed, in the form of Kevin Andrews.

He can be charitably described as an incompetent and dim Bible-bashing moonbat who shouldn't even be in Cabinet.

If only there was an emoticon for throwing-up.....

So Rob Anders has an Aussie cousin?
 
Dimsum said:
In short, yes. 

I think most of our troubles with procurement, retention, etc. can almost be substituted with "ADF" vice "CAF".  However, the ADF seems to be less fearful of Foreign Military Sales (C-17, etc.) which may or may not be Australian-ized. 

I also get this feeling that because the three services are separate (no combined Basic Training, little to no contact with the other services even in what we call "purple" trades), they understand each other even less than our elements understand each other.  This is little less so in the officer world as the ADF Academy (RMC) is Tri-Service. 
Have you seen any results from their Chief of Capability Development Group?

http://www.defence.gov.au/CDG/WhoWeAre/
 
OTR1 said:
New defence minister for Oz appointed, in the form of Kevin Andrews.

He can be charitably described as an incompetent and dim Bible-bashing moonbat who shouldn't even be in Cabinet.

If only there was an emoticon for throwing-up.....

Here you go.  :boke:
 
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