Baby Boomers vs Millenials

[Fishbone Jones]

But it IS relevant though. Regardless of race (not sure why that matters...) the fact of the matter is that the welfare state created in the post WW2 era and maintained through the lifespan of the baby boomers is the key contributor to the current fiscal issues faced by Canada. This system spent it's way through an unprecedented period of economic growth than attempted to spend its way through the inevitable slowdown caused by the rest of the world catching up. Your generation DID NOT pay it's way through- it financed it's way with debt that was passed on to the next generations. The same economic incompatibility that meant those programs weren't sustainable in the height of economic growth apply today. While you're right that BBs didn't invent deficit spending, they seemingly perfected it.

I love the fact that whatever explanation is given, people still flat out blame BB's. Like Wynne blames old, white people for everything. The millennials and communists never did any wrong.  :rofl:

I'm out.

Cheers

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Totally disagree about Baby Boomers having paid their way.

It may not have been you personally, but as a generation, the vast majority of entitlements and the associated liabilities as well as debt accumulation has occurred while you held sway in the voting demographics.

In addition, for the entitlements the boomers now expect to receive in old age (while retired), instead of a government trust fund generated by consecutive surpluses, you have saddled those who will still have to work with a massive set of provincial and federal debts, and the associated debt servicing costs that come along with it.

 

[Remius]

But it IS relevant though. Regardless of race (not sure why that matters...) the fact of the matter is that the welfare state created in the post WW2 era and maintained through the lifespan of the baby boomers is the key contributor to the current fiscal issues faced by Canada. This system spent it's way through an unprecedented period of economic growth than attempted to spend its way through the inevitable slowdown caused by the rest of the world catching up. Your generation DID NOT pay it's way through- it financed it's way with debt that was passed on to the next generations. The same economic incompatibility that meant those programs weren't sustainable in the height of economic growth apply today. While you're right that BBs didn't invent deficit spending, they seemingly perfected it.

The Great Recession earlier this century is one of those perfections the boomers messed up which led to damage that cohort of Millennials.  Lack of jobs hit younger people the hardest at that time.  So I can see why they blame the boomers. Bad financial manangement led to that cohort having less opportunities and less options.

 

[Jed]

Totally disagree about Baby Boomers having paid their way.

It may not have been you personally, but as a generation, the vast majority of entitlements and the associated liabilities as well as debt accumulation has occurred while you held sway in the voting demographics.

In addition, for the entitlements the boomers now expect to receive in old age (while retired), instead of a government trust fund generated by consecutive surpluses, you have saddled those who will still have to work with a massive set of provincial and federal debts, and the associated debt servicing costs that come along with it.

Oh you mean those entitlements that were paid for?  RecceGuy is right. Why bother to argue with people whose default is to find someone to blame instead of working together to solve a problem?

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

I don't think it was baby boomers that saddled us with the debt of three wars and other skirmishes, but here we are. Our generation has expanded human knowledge and explored more of the earth and solar system, than any previous. We are responsible for the whole computer thing. Element of our generation are also responsible for the welfare state. Each generation is the same. They have advancements and pitfalls like every other.

But today, it's all about "Not my fault, you owe me." The same attitude that permeates the socialist welfare system.

The only political decisions I feel, even remotely, responsible for are ones by the conservatives.

I have never voted socialist or communist. Decisions by that bunch have absolutely nothing to do with me, except they use my money to pay for it..

This is not an aberration where the millennials are being screwed by the BB's. It happens to every generation.

We just have more people willing to work, compared to the give me everything millennials. They complain because they are running out of our money. Let me correct that. They HAVE run out of everyone else's money.

For the 3 wars, I assume you mean WW1, WW2, and Korea.

WW1 saw net debt rise $878 million, or roughly $12.18 billion in 2017 dollars.

WW2 saw net debt rise $8.2 billion or $107.97 billion.

From 1946 to 2000 net debt rose $560.44 billion, not including any adjustment for inflation ($571.74 billion - $11.298 billion). So, the cost of the 2 world wars in terms of pure debt was less than baby boomer era social deficits and debt not adjusted for inflation.

In terms of "we just have more people willing to work" do you have any sources for this assertion? According to stats Canada, unemployment from the 50's to the 70's (that high economic era discussed) was generally in the range of 3-5%. From 1973 through to 2000 the unemployment rate the rate dipped under 5% only 75-77 and went as high as 13%. From the mid-70's on, unemployment didn't drop below 6% until the late 2000's, when it spiked again because of the recession (where Harper put up the largest debt in Canadian history). However, as unemployment is now below 6% and the lowest in 40 years, it would seem that more millenials and gen x'ers are working than the BBs did.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Oh you mean those entitlements that were paid for?  RecceGuy is right. Why bother to argue with people whose default is to find someone to blame instead of working together to solve a problem?

But he's not right, they weren't paid for, they were mortgaged at the expense of Gen X and millenials. As for the second half- I believe this started with Altair saying that to improve the base to pay for the baby boomers health people either had to have more children or we needed more immigration, which are in fact solutions. The follow along argument was borne from this rational assertion.

 

[Remius]

Oh you mean those entitlements that were paid for?  RecceGuy is right. Why bother to argue with people whose default is to find someone to blame instead of working together to solve a problem?

I would suggest reading the Fraser institute link than BG posted a few posts up. Part 6 and 7. They were not in fact paid for.

It isn’t about blaming anyone.  Boomers stopped having kids.  Either you make more kids which Gen x and Millennials  aren’t due to affordability, lifestyle or whatever or you bring in more people.

 

[Altair]

But he's not right, they weren't paid for, they were mortgaged at the expense of Gen X and millenials. As for the second half- I believe this started with Altair saying that to improve the base to pay for the baby boomers health people either had to have more children or we needed more immigration, which are in fact solutions. The follow along argument was borne from this rational assertion.

Exactly. I'm not for blaming any one generation,  I'm more for looking at the solutions.

Policies that enable people to have more kids in a affordable fashion,  or more immigrants coming in. One or the other,  or both.

 

[Jed]

Exactly. I'm not for blaming any one generation,  I'm more for looking at the solutions.

Policies that enable people to have more kids in a affordable fashion,  or more immigrants coming in. One or the other,  or both.

No, you are singling out BBs, finding someone to blame. Hopefully my last time I take the bait.  Too many people resort to the childish ‘did too, did not’ game kids play. I will get off that Merry go round.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

No, you are singling out BBs, finding someone to blame. Hopefully my last time I take the bait.  Too many people resort to the childish ‘did too, did not’ game kids play. I will get off that Merry go round.

Hmm.  A very odd response, given that the sum total of your contribution to what has actually been a fairly good discussion has been:

Oh you mean those entitlements that were paid for?  RecceGuy is right. Why bother to argue with people whose default is to find someone to blame instead of working together to solve a problem?

 

[YZT580]

Blaming Harper for the debt is slightly misleading.  He was in a minority government for the start of it and the spending was his method of buying off the opposition parties.  Stupid idea but it worked.  Unfortunately it put us greater in debt however Justin seems to be trying to surpass all of Steven's efforts and do it in a shorter time. 

On the immigration topic, we don't need more immigrants; at least not the ones we are getting.  We are not importing people who can hold ddown jobs and make a difference in our society as many do not have the skills.  They can however make babies and that seems to be their major contribution.  That isn't what we need.  That is an expensive way to increase your population as many of them will be on social assistance for years. 

The first thing that is needed is to create an atmosphere that recognises all work as honourable: even the simplest or most menial of tasks.  WE don't just need nurses we need PSWs that will help with the nitty-gritty of nursing for example.  Canadians need to be willing to pick cherries and apples and actually get dirty when they work.  Unemployment is high amongst young people because they don't have any skills or experience.  Yet most farmers import labourers because the local kids won't work.  I know of several businesses that have folded, not because of no business but simply because they can't staff the assembly line and they are paying more than minimum.

We need a proper vocational schools.  There is no way that Irving should have to go off-shore for welders and fitters.  Our schools should have been able to meet their needs without having to establish a new programme.

Then we need to create an environment that recognises the skills and contributions that mothers make to society and make it possible for a single income family to actually be able to afford to live, buy a house, and take a vacation: they used to.  Travel the streets of any major city and look at the old cookies cutter houses.  Those houses were built for working people and they could afford to buy them.  Now those same homes are being bought up, torn down and replaced by condo's that are far beyond the price range of any but the top 2 percent. 

 

[PPCLI Guy]

On the immigration topic, we don't need more immigrants; at least not the ones we are getting.  We are not importing people who can hold ddown jobs and make a difference in our society as many do not have the skills.  They can however make babies and that seems to be their major contribution.  That isn't what we need.  That is an expensive way to increase your population as many of them will be on social assistance for years.

Again, this sounds good (or at least it is the Easy button), until you start doing some research:

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11f0019m/11f0019m2016375-eng.htm

Abstract
This paper provides, for the first time, an overview of immigrant business ownership and the associated employment in Canada. The focus is on ownership of private incorporated firms and on the unincorporated self-employed. Immigrants are entrepreneurial. While immigrant business ownership rates are low immediately after entry, after four to eight years in Canada they surpass those of the comparison group (largely Canadian-born). However, among private incorporated firms, immigrant-owned businesses tend to be smaller than those owned by the Canadian-born. Hence, on a per capita basis, the job creation rate via ownership of private incorporated companies was lower among immigrants than the Canadian-born. However, the per capita job creation rate via unincorporated self-employment was higher among immigrants than the Canadian-born. For almost one-half of the unincorporated self-employed immigrants, self-employment was a secondary activity; most of their earnings came from paid jobs. Ownership rates vary significantly by education, age, source region and gender of the immigrant. Business class immigrants have the highest propensity for business ownership, but, since this is a small group, they accounted for little of all immigrant business ownership and job creation in 2010. Immigrants in the economic class accounted for the largest share, and, although not selected for economic reasons, immigrants in the family and refugee classes accounted for 40% to 50% of all immigrant business ownership. This paper also compares the industrial distribution of immigrant-owned businesses with that of businesses owned by the Canadian-born population.

 

[Jarnhamar]

It is hard to find directly comparative stats, but those that are available suggest that this may not be a fair characterisation...

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11f0019m/11f0019m2016375-eng.htm

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-626-x/11-626-x2015051-eng.htm

https://www.thespec.com/news-story/2222361-10-myths-about-immigration/

And a good counter to the Grubel report....

http://torontonorthlip.ca/sites/torontonorthlip.ca/files/MythsAboutImmigrants-phase1-report-final.pdf

Thanks for taking the time to dig those up, I'll go through them all.  Maybe my disconnect is the difference between responsible immigration  and the Liberals plan for refugees.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Relevant?

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/03/27/a-hairstylist-license-can-be-as-elusive-as-a-doctors-license-for-newcomers.html

‘I’m not trying to be a doctor. I just want to cut men’s hair’

With over 15 years of experience as a barber in Iraq, Benjamin Gbo can’t cut anyone’s hair in a salon without a hairstylist licence in Ontario — a process he has failed five times already.

‘This licensing exam is hard,’ Emilina Garzon said as she did a buzz cut on a Bay St. client downtown.  

With a diploma and more than 15 years of experience as a barber in Iraq, Benjamin Gbo’s dream is to open his own shop in Toronto to support his family. But he can’t even cut anyone’s hair in a salon without a hairstylist licence in Ontario.

A native of Mosul, Gbo has made five failed attempts at the hairstylist exam mandated by the Ontario College of Trades, the professional regulatory body of 23 compulsory skilled trades in the province.

“There are too many rules that stop you from working as a hairstylist here. They test you on all these names of bacterial infections and medical terms that I have never heard of,” said the 43-year-old, who fled to Canada in 2008 and was granted asylum shortly after.

“I’m not trying to be a chemist or a doctor. I just want to cut men’s hair and shave their beard to make them look nice, and make a living.”

 

[Remius]

The whole hairstyle liscence debacle was and is money grab.

 

[mariomike]

The whole hairstyle liscence debacle was and is money grab.

"Being a barber is a lot like being a bar man or a soda jerk. There's not much to it once you've learned the basic moves."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR0wCC271s4

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Relevant?

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/03/27/a-hairstylist-license-can-be-as-elusive-as-a-doctors-license-for-newcomers.html

Yup.  Plenty of "skilled immigrants" have great difficulty with the various provincial exams etc.  It seems if you haven't gone through a school (that engenders student debt held by the province) to be taught to a specific test, you are SOL.

We need to be making this easier, in order to harness the energy and entrepreneurial spirit inherent in the vast majority of immigrants.  As a child immigrant myself (that's right, I stole a job from a REAL Canadian), I have nothing but respect for those brave souls who take a leap into the great unknown in order to forge a better future for themselves and their families.

 

[ModlrMike]

In the course of the day I meet a great many people. I can count on one hand the number of first generation immigrants I've met who are on social assistance.  I find that the immigrants are often the hardest working, and the "home grown" not so much. A gross generalization, I know... but that's just my experience.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It's ten months and 3800 apprentice hours for barber/hairstylist/esthetician. There's a lot more to it besides flying around a head with scissors. Diseases are common. Unregulated shops have caused horrendous infections, mostly mani's and pedi's, but hair related also. I think it only right that if we are going to give someone a license, they have to meet the standard of every other skilled person in the trade. Just the fact that they've never heard or worried about diseases, causes or remedies is disturbing in itself. I've been through my wife's books. It is nothing like cutting each others hair on deployment. Cutting hair is one of the smaller portions of the course.

I saw lots of doctors and dentists in Afghanistan. They would yank your tooth then use the same pliers to go back working on their scooters. I'd feel a whole bunch better if I saw a Canadian diploma on the wall. If the guy can't pass the test, maybe he should take the course. The Ministry of Colleges and Trades will provide a translator and drop the time limit for exams. If he can't pass, he doesn't know the material. If he doesn't know the material, he can't be a barber. :dunno:

We are way ahead of many countries when health & safety in the workplace is involved. Those rules have been sharpened and refined over the years to ensure both workers and customers receive as little exposure to accidents and danger as possible. I see no reason to arbitrarily reduce that standard to accommodate anyone.

Go ahead and make the process easier for someone, but we should not lower standards in order to accommodate.

 

[Jed]

In the course of the day I meet a great many people. I can count on one hand the number of first generation immigrants I've met who are on social assistance.  I find that the immigrants are often the hardest working, and the "home grown" not so much. A gross generalization, I know... but that's just my experience.

With respect to immigrants that I have met I entirely agree with you.  However, how come the media seems to focus on all those who seem to complain and whine about how hard they are done by and how the world is treating them so unfairly?

Maybe it is just a personal pet peeve of mine but I dislike whiners whether they are immigrants or 6th generation whatevers. If my forefathers ever spent this much effort whining, being a victim and not helping themselves or their neighbours I doubt I and my siblings would still be around.