Baby Boomers vs Millenials

[YZT580]

First off, thanks for the information.  I will willingly concede the point regarding their eagerness to work.  But the issues you have raised are valid and are indicative of the problems that I mentioned.  My comments re: baby factories were not intended as derogatory but simply observation.  This is what is happening.  Those with funding start their own businesses but many are stuck with the problems of acquiring the necessary skills to make a go of it in this country.  Immigrants should be screened to ensure that they have a place to go and to work.  The same is NOT  true of those misfortunates who enter as legitimate refugees.  That is where our aid needs to go to bring them up to the level of expertise that the normal normal stream of immigrants already has achieved.  But that still doesn't address the issue of population growth.  Unless that is fixed the children of the immigrants will be in the same fix as we are now.  No money and no time for families.

 

[FJAG]

Just as a research point and basis for discussion of who was responsible for our national debt etc the following provides a very comprehensive analysis of the Federal Government's Fiscal Histroy since Confederation:

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/federal-fiscal-history-canada-1867-2017.pdf

:cheers:

 

[mariomike]

I'm a baby Boomer. Not by choice. It was an accident of birth. 
So, I have no axe to grind with Millenials. More power to them.
We Baby Boomers had it better than the 46er's ( WW2 vets ) on the department, who fought their battles with the city before we were born. We enjoyed a much better platoon system than they did.

I can only speak of the city I worked for.

What do Millenials have the we didn't?

Millenials have a 2.33% accrual rate on their pensions. We had a 2% accrual rate.

That means they can "max out" at 70% after 30 years. It took us 35 years to achieve that.

They have "presumptive legislation" for PTSD and "cumulative mental stress". Out of service time and paid stress leave - at their discretion - for any calls they feel "troubled" by.

We never had PTSD leave. Stress leave. Mental health leave. Down Time. Operational leave. Call it what you want. Nothing at all like that. It had to be a PHYSICAL injury to get off Emergency Operations.

Power stretchers now, and can call for back-up any time they want. No questions asked.

They get meal breaks - paid of course. Time and a half if it is delayed. They get a meal allowance.

A much - much - lower call volume than we had. Guaranteed minimum car counts. Unit hour Utilization ( UhU ) they call it.

Early call benefits. Late call benefits. Out of service time.

Wash up time. Lock up time.

Quarantine bonus. Working quarantine bonus.

ETF, PSU, HUSAR, Marine, Bike, CBRNE, FTO, Research,  etc... bonuses.

That's just a short version of some of the improvements to the collective agreement that Millienials have that Baby Boomers didn't.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

  But that still doesn't address the issue of population growth.  Unless that is fixed the children of the immigrants will be in the same fix as we are now.  No money and no time for families.

I think you may be missing the point.  The problem we have is not one of population growth - rather it is one of stagnation or decline of the population.  Under the current construct of the global economy, our standard of living is dependent on our external trade - our domestic market is too small to support our exorbitant lifestyles.  Trade requires product or services, all of which require labour.  With declining birthrates already below the replacement threshold, without immigration, our population will decrease.....and with it, our economy and hence our lifestyle.

We cannot make this work, again, under the current construct of the global economy, without immigration.

 

[Altair]

I think you may be missing the point.  The problem we have is not one of population growth - rather it is one of stagnation or decline of the population.  Under the current construct of the global economy, our standard of living is dependent on our external trade - our domestic market is too small to support our exorbitant lifestyles.  Trade requires product or services, all of which require labour.  With declining birthrates already below the replacement threshold, without immigration, our population will decrease.....and with it, our economy and hence our lifestyle.

We cannot make this work, again, under the current construct of the global economy, without immigration.

thankfully,  fast coming is the day where machines take over much of our work,  but then we will want a population cap for there will not be enough labour to go around.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Never fear, once the energy sector is choked out of existence there won't be enough jobs so we won't need to import anyone.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I saw lots of doctors and dentists in Afghanistan. They would yank your tooth then use the same pliers to go back working on their scooters. I'd feel a whole bunch better if I saw a Canadian diploma on the wall. If the guy can't pass the test, maybe he should take the course. The Ministry of Colleges and Trades will provide a translator and drop the time limit for exams. If he can't pass, he doesn't know the material. If he doesn't know the material, he can't be a barber. :dunno:

Comparing hairdressers with doctors?!

There is a distinction between getting training to be exposed to concepts and being tested on things you learn by heart (and prompty dump from memory after the exam).  A more useful way to test is to test cognitive abilities.  If the trade is such that there aren't critical cognitive abilities, perhaps there is no need for a written exam and the focus should be on practical applications...

 

[Eaglelord17]

I'm a baby Boomer. Not by choice. It was an accident of birth. 
So, I have no axe to grind with Millenials. More power to them.
We Baby Boomers had it better than the 46er's ( WW2 vets ) on the department, who fought their battles with the city before we were born. We enjoyed a much better platoon system than they did.

I can only speak of the city I worked for.

What do Millenials have the we didn't?

Millenials have a 2.33% accrual rate on their pensions. We had a 2% accrual rate.

That means they can "max out" at 70% after 30 years. It took us 35 years to achieve that.

They have "presumptive legislation" for PTSD and "cumulative mental stress". Out of service time and paid stress leave - at their discretion - for any calls they feel "troubled" by.

We never had PTSD leave. Stress leave. Mental health leave. Down Time. Operational leave. Call it what you want. Nothing at all like that. It had to be a PHYSICAL injury to get off Emergency Operations.

Power stretchers now, and can call for back-up any time they want. No questions asked.

They get meal breaks - paid of course. Time and a half if it is delayed. They get a meal allowance.

A much - much - lower call volume than we had. Guaranteed minimum car counts. Unit hour Utilization ( UhU ) they call it.

Early call benefits. Late call benefits. Out of service time.

Wash up time. Lock up time.

Quarantine bonus. Working quarantine bonus.

ETF, PSU, HUSAR, Marine, Bike, CBRNE, FTO, Research,  etc... bonuses.

That's just a short version of some of the improvements to the collective agreement that Millienials have that Baby Boomers didn't.

And that is a example of one government organization which many could easily argue are overpaid and receive too much in benefits (as paraphrased, your given much more now than you ever received in the past for the same job with less requirements for the job). Most organizations have gone the other way. Less high paying jobs (mainly due to a decline of industrial jobs in country), less benefits, worse pensions (most civilian employers now only have defined contribution as opposed to before when most were defined benefit), higher educational requirements to find employment, etc.

We have higher taxes, more expensive housing, more expensive vehicles, and in general less opportunities. That being said, there are still opportunities, you just have to be willing to take them. For example anyone who goes into a skilled trade in the next 10 years will be set for life. The cons to that is employers have made it difficult to get hired into a apprenticeship and most expect much more out of apprentices than they did in the last 40+ years.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Comparing hairdressers with doctors?!

There is a distinction between getting training to be exposed to concepts and being tested on things you learn by heart (and prompty dump from memory after the exam).  A more useful way to test is to test cognitive abilities.  If the trade is such that there aren't critical cognitive abilities, perhaps there is no need for a written exam and the focus should be on practical applications...

There may be a likelyhood, where this guy came from, they are likely the same. Barbers were your dentists, even here at one time. I would suggest you look at the curriculum, before writing these trades off as simple rote learned physical actions. http://www.collegeoftrades.ca/wp-content/uploads/Hairstylist.pdf  If I'm going in for a shave, I want to know that the guy that might nick me has done everything to make sure I don't get hep or aids or msra. I don't want to be touched by tools that have not been properly disinfected, their shop has to comply with Min of Labour, Min of Colleges and Trades, Min of Health along with various municipal laws. These laws are in place to protect the worker and the customer. Barbers, in Ontario, are classed as hairstylists. Their level of customer health care and safety is a mandated by the province for a reason. This guy is not just cutting his fire team partners hair on deployment. Just because you can trim someone's hair, doesn't mean you're a barber. What if his wife wants to do nails in the shop. Should that be allowed because she worked on nails in her village?What happens when she gives someone hep or msra? How do you track the infection if it started in an unregistered shop, caused by someone not trained or licensed.

And why the hell should I have paid thousands of dollars , so my wife could spend a couple of years, full time, learning her trade, when someone else, not qualified can set up shop just for coming to Canada. What if the person was American or British. What if some squaddie gets out, comes to Canada and says I've been cutting hair for years, I don't need this, just give me a license. Are you going to do it?

I'm all for giving people a hand up. However, creating two classes of workers, is not the way to go. I've seen the exam rooms and how they work. This guy was likely put in a room by himself with only his terp, who is familiar with the exam and terminology and probably given all the time required to complete it. If he's fluent in english, probably no terp.

Our licensing procedures are not in place to impose hardship. First and foremost with ANY job or business in Ontario, health & safety are paramount and top the list for any enterprise in this province. If you can't fulfill the H&S requirements for the trade, it's full stop right there, no carrying on and getting to it later.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Not to poke you RG, but the requirement to "comply with Min of Labour, Min of Colleges and Trades, Min of Health along with various municipal laws. These laws are in place to protect the worker and the customer." sounds pretty big government and dare I say it socialist?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

"Being a barber is a lot like being a bar man or a soda jerk. There's not much to it once you've learned the basic moves."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR0wCC271s4

Nice comedy relief Mario. I love Billy Bob.

But no, it's not like that.

 

[SupersonicMax]

There may be a likelyhood, where this guy came from, they are likely the same. Barbers were your dentists, even here at one time. I would suggest you look at the curriculum, before writing these trades off as simple rote learned physical actions. http://www.collegeoftrades.ca/wp-content/uploads/Hairstylist.pdf  If I'm going in for a shave, I want to know that the guy that might nick me has done everything to make sure I don't get hep or aids or msra. I don't want to be touched by tools that have not been properly disinfected, their shop has to comply with Min of Labour, Min of Colleges and Trades, Min of Health along with various municipal laws. These laws are in place to protect the worker and the customer. Barbers, in Ontario, are classed as hairstylists.

I am actually suggesting that exams should NOT focus on rote learning but on practical applications: rote learning doesn't prove much and it seems this is a part of the issue from migrants.  Written exams for solely practical trades doesn't really help determining if someone is fit to work in that trade.  The fact your barber knows the names of bacterial infections doesn't mean you're safer.  His/her habbits and practices will keep you safe.

 

[kratz]

The discussion of regulation / requirements / or licensing is a pan-Canada issue, not just Ontario.

I'm a Gen-X, and I have witnessed the "over qualification" of the labour market.
When I was a youth, it was easy to apply for entry level jobs.
Today, you are not even considered if you don't have "training" in that field

10 years ago, I knew one lady, she was proud to have earned her "call center worker" certificate from the college.
After 20+ years of service, without a college or university piece of paper, my CAF skills and knowledge  are ignored.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Not to poke you RG, but the requirement to "comply with Min of Labour, Min of Colleges and Trades, Min of Health along with various municipal laws. These laws are in place to protect the worker and the customer." sounds pretty big government and dare I say it socialist?

Sure, until you have to investigate a guy who is now 1/2 thick from being caught in a press. Taking pictures while they scrape him out of the machine. Waiting for lift because you have a guy under a 5 ton slab of marble. Or someone is off work because they got an infection and lost a hand, or their lungs have turned hard and cracked because the employer didn't know what he was doing with imron paint and now the inside of the dead guys lungs are sealed with plastic. Heck, I've even had to bag body parts and deliver them because EMS and Fire missed them and I found them during initial investigation. I've got ten years of those stories. In Ontario, health & safety are paramount. The number one, legislated, concern in the workplace. We still kill and injure people, but nowhere on the scale we used to. Before we came along, working on, say, the Peace Bridge, would have only required a good sense of balance. No harnesses, no divers, no training, not anything except a pulse and strong back.

Let's try lighten the mood a bit.

If you want to see the 'socialist' construct to industrial safety, I have a clip I used to show owners. It has fairly wide distribution and there are tons of examples out there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL1AgOqnYYE

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The discussion of regulation / requirements / or licensing is a pan-Canada issue, not just Ontario.

I'm a Gen-X, and I have witnessed the "over qualification" of the labour market.
When I was a youth, it was easy to apply for entry level jobs.
Today, you are not even considered if you don't have "training" in that field

10 years ago, I knew one lady, she was proud to have earned her "call center worker" certificate from the college.
After 20+ years of service, without a college or university piece of paper, my CAF skills and knowledge  are ignored.

It started when everyone had to become a doctor or lawyer.

I went to a trade school for high school. Not a vocational school, a regular high school. Difference was, along with academics, we also learned skilled trade. In grade 9 you took them all. Auto, electrical, welding, brick laying, carpentry, metal forming, metal cutting, plumbing, foundry, pattern making, etc. All exceedingly high paying jobs now.

In grade 10 you whittled those down and started to specialize. By grade 12, you were usually picked up for employment for your trade before graduation. Your school experience counted toward your apprenticeship and most guys were journeymen (no not like that ) within a year.

People that grew up doing those jobs wanted better for their kids, so the pushed them to university for professional diplomas. Everyone could wear their rings and hang out their lettered shingles.

But there was no one to unplug the toilet, or change their tire or wire in a new light.

We have a local builder so desperate for bricklayers he approached the school board and offered to pay the costs involved and supply the instructors and materials, to make it part of the voluntary curriculum. You can't get a seat in that class.

I'll agree there is over regulation, but I'm only experienced in my field and in my field, regulations are made so people don't get killed, not to create red tape or stifle business.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Something just pinged.

Service people may not be aware of the stiffness of civilian regulation. Probably, because we don't see it.

I don't know the inside of a Leopard, but I do a Centurion, an APC and numerous other pieces of CF equipment.

I will guarantee, that you would never be able to modify those machines, and stay operational, if they followed civilian regulations.

But we don't and because of the nature of the beast, we have immunity from those rules, so may not see safety from the same perspective of a civie.

Just an untested theory.

 

[kratz]

Now that the "red tape" is in place, we have a labour market that is disfunctional.

If you have a degree, you don't have workforce experience
If you have a community college diploma, you don't have life experience.
If you have both life and workforce experience, you are passed over for that piece of paper.

My wife's grandfather was told by the new brick layer union his 26 years had to be examined
for entry. He told them off and continued for another 17 years. We don't have as many of these options these days.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I am actually suggesting that exams should NOT focus on rote learning but on practical applications: rote learning doesn't prove much and it seems this is a part of the issue from migrants.  Written exams for solely practical trades doesn't really help determining if someone is fit to work in that trade.  The fact your barber knows the names of bacterial infections doesn't mean you're safer. His/her habits and practices will keep you safe.

Guess what? That doesn't work. I speak from experience. Health and safety are the first things that fall off the table when the bottom line needs fixing. And by rote, I meant the learned movement of their scissors, clippers whatever. Not book learning rote.

He could do the exam orally. You think disinfection and diseases of the skin and scalp should not be covered? You think that good sanitation practices should just be taken for granted? If someone has a scalp problem, dry skin, fungal (ringworm) infections, psoriasis, eczema or seborrheic dermatitis. I want a barber to identify it and tell them to see a doctor. I don't want those same tools used on me until they are properly disinfected to industry standards. There is the mixing of chemicals for treatments of different types of hair and styles. Let him be a barber, I don't care, but I want to walk in and see that certificate before he touches me to tell me he's, at least, aware of the H&S issues. Established, licensed barbers in Canada, have been making your argument for years, it hasn't worked for the same reason as the reasons I've stated.

Complain if you want. It won't be changing unless it changes for everyone.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Now that the "red tape" is in place, we have a labour market that is disfunctional.

If you have a degree, you don't have workforce experience
If you have a community college diploma, you don't have life experience.
If you have both life and workforce experience, you are passed over for that piece of paper.

My wife's grandfather was told by the new brick layer union his 26 years had to be examined
for entry. He told them off and continued for another 17 years. We don't have as many of these options these days.

That is an overall malady of the system. We can state the problems all we want, it's the change that's required. However, with change there needs to be compromise. It can't be top down, the way it is, nor bottom up as the trades want. One of the biggest impediments to skilled trades entry to the workforce are the artificial low apprenticeship rates forced by the unions to keep the trade high paying, high demand and exclusive.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Guess what? That doesn't work. I speak from experience. Health and safety are the first things that fall off the table when the bottom line needs fixing. And by rote, I meant the learned movement of their scissors, clippers whatever. Not book learning rote.

He could do the exam orally. You think disinfection and diseases of the skin and scalp should not be covered? You think that good sanitation practices should just be taken for granted? If someone has a scalp problem, dry skin, fungal (ringworm) infections, psoriasis, eczema or seborrheic dermatitis. I want a barber to identify it and tell them to see a doctor. I don't want those same tools used on me until they are properly disinfected to industry standards. There is the mixing of chemicals for treatments of different types of hair and styles. Let him be a barber, I don't care, but I want to walk in and see that certificate before he touches me to tell me he's, at least, aware of the H&S issues. Established, licensed barbers in Canada, have been making your argument for years, it hasn't worked for the same reason as the reasons I've stated.

Complain if you want. It won't be changing unless it changes for everyone.

You're the one claiming the standards are rigourous for the sake of safety.  I am saying that knowing words (seems like it is part of the current standard and what is at issues) will not help that in the hairdressing world.  Practical assessments go a much longer way...