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Bayonet obsolete? Not yet, apparently -

A question for those who have been through the pre-deployment training cycle for Afghanistan a few times:  How much bayonet fighting training was in the pre-deployment training schedule for the early rotations? How much has been added to the pre-deployment training for recent rotations?

If the argument is being put forward that this is an essential and frequently applied skill for modern warriors, surely it has been documented through the current Canadian Lessons Learned process with visible results.

 
We did exactly zero for work-up with bayonet for both Athena Roto 2 and TF1-06.  I think it has been mentioned earlier in the thread but for 1-06 allot of us ditched our bayonets.  Having only 1-3 people in a dismounted section that can actually mount a bayonet makes for a pretty poor bayonet charge.  The buildings you have to enter are small and adding a bayonet just increases the length and likelihood that you will catch your weapon on something.
 
MJP said:
The buildings you have to enter are small and adding a bayonet just increases the length and likelihood that you will catch your weapon on something.

Good point. The British rifles are shorter so they mount bayonets as an SOP to help with the 'stand off' distance of the bad guys.
 
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Now that the Brits have the Daniel Defense SA80RIS - I wonder how long the knife will last...
 
The British like their combat cutlery, so the ol' pig sticker is likely to stay for the foreseeable future:

"Throughout the pages of any Small Arms School Corps
Journal you will find several depictions of the bayonet. On
the front and back cover alone there are three. It is
inextricably linked with the history of the firearm, and
remains the last survivor of those edged weapons from the
past that is still carried into action by virtually every 21st
century British infantryman. Whether as emergency pike, assault weapon, badge of
distinction or tool, the bayonet remains the badge of the
Infantry."

http://www.infantry-weapons.org/docs/Bayonet_History.pdf
 
In that case, the bayonet is a heavy piece of nostalgia to carry around.
 
Wonderbread said:
In that case, the bayonet is a heavy piece of nostalgia to carry around.

I think it is more than that.  Keep in mind that that bayonet is being carried by an individual who, at least in the 80's, the era of the Falklands, came from a society whose idea of a "good time" was to head down to the local football field with a snootfull of beer and engage in "a bit of aggro" - mayhem, melee, rumble - call it what you like.

I am afraid that I think your average British Squaddie is a bit different than your average Canadian Squaddie. 
 
Kirkhill said:
I am afraid that I think your average British Squaddie is a bit different than your average Canadian Squaddie.

All the more reason to be careful what examples get trotted out as "proof" that the bayonet has universal relevance.
 
I know that this is a bit late, as I was reading this on Page 2 of this topic but someone mentioned the pyschological impact of a shotgun being racked and I can give two examples from real life. We were boarding a suspect vessel in the gulf in 2002, and the crew was being belligerant. A few of the boarding party members retracted their ASP batons and they crew immediatly calmed down. And another instance my friend told me about was that the bridge crew of a vessel they boarded was being uncooperative and trying to go for stuff in cabinets (they thought maybe weapons) and the guy on the shotgun racked his action and that immediately got the attention of the crew and they stopped and did what they were told.

I believe the bayonet has its uses, and should be kept as an extra knife or something. Hell I knew a guy on boarding party who carried no fewer than SEVEN knives on his person during boardings and he scared the shit out of the boarded crews. He also has 185 tattoos and was big as hell but thats beside the point.
 
navypuke said:
And another instance my friend told me about was that the bridge crew of a vessel they boarded was being uncooperative and trying to go for stuff in cabinets (they thought maybe weapons) and the guy on the shotgun racked his action and that immediately got the attention of the crew and they stopped and did what they were told.
"Racked his action"?  You mean he put his shotgun into a rack?  Or did he cock it?  ???
 
I believe the bayonet has its uses, and should be kept as an extra knife or something. Hell I knew a guy on boarding party who carried no fewer than SEVEN knives on his person during boardings and he scared the crap out of the boarded crews.

Keep the bayonet as an extra knife? Easy there rambo.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but naval boarding is usually of a very limited duration.  Troops in the sand on the other hand, could be outside the wire for extended periods and are therefore required to save weight wherever possible.  Carrying around 7 knives to intimidate the bad guys isn't nearly as important as getting through the grape fields so we can get in a position to shoot people.

The bayonet as a weapon has been rendered obsolete by the assault rifle.  The bayonet as a utility knife is quickly being rendered obsolete by the multi-tool.
 
"racking" the slide on a Shotgun just ensures the enemy knows you did not have a round chambered.

 
Wonderbread said:
The bayonet as a weapon has been rendered obsolete by the assault rifle.  The bayonet as a utility knife is quickly being rendered obsolete by the multi-tool.

But the ceremonial and symbolic arguments will see lugs on assault rifles until someone designs a service rifle that actually cannot mount a bayonet. 

And then the eternal cabal of Regimental Sergeants Major, powered by the energy of generations of past RSMs spinning in their graves, will have to either suggest historic weapons for Colour escorts, or plug bayonets for ceremonial occasions.
 
Michael O'Leary said:
But the ceremonial and symbolic arguments will see lugs on assault rifles until someone designs a service rifle that actually cannot mount a bayonet. 

And then the eternal cabal of Regimental Sergeants Major, powered by the energy of generations of past RSMs spinning in their graves, will have to either suggest historic weapons for Colour escorts, or plug bayonets for ceremonial occasions.

Good lord! Then we would have to bring back scarlet parade uniforms and pith helmets.....
 
Thucydides said:
Good lord! Then we would have to bring back scarlet parade uniforms and pith helmets.....

And drill.

Proper drill.

Not this modern soft-shoe approach with its too-fast count and lack o' practice.

Good old square bashin' .....

Oh, sorry, my mind wandered of there .....
 
Wonderbread said:
The bayonet as a utility knife is quickly being rendered obsolete by the multi-tool.

I carry a KBAR to use as a fixed blade knife, I don't want to saw through paracord  ::)

I carry my bayonet to use as a prodding/digging tool (I could just leave it in the FOB, but that would require using my Kbar for that purpose).  It does fit nicely between my IFAK and smoke grenade pouch.
 
British officer wins two gallantry awards for fending off Taliban attack with bayonet

A young British officer, Lieutenant James Adamson, who won two gallantry awards while serving in Afghanistan has told how he fended off an enemy attack by bayoneting a Taliban fighter to death.

By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
Published: 9:00PM BST 12 Sep 2009

Lt Adamson, who is single and comes from the Isle of Man, was moving between two eight man sections when a group of Taliban fighters attempted a flanking attack Photo: CHRIS SAVILLE/APEX
Lieutenant James Adamson was awarded the Military Cross after killing two insurgents during close quarter combat in Helmand's notorious "Green Zone".

The 24-year-old officer, a member of the 5th battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland, revealed that he shouted "have some of this" before shooting dead a gunman who had just emerged from a maize field.
Seconds later and out of ammunition, the lieutenant leapt over a river bank and killed a second insurgent machine-gunner with a single thrust of his bayonet in the man's chest.
The officer was one of 145 members of the armed services who last week received awards in the latest Operational Honours list.
In a graphic description of the intense fighting in Helmand, the officer told of the moment killed the second fighter. He said: "It was a split second decision.
"I either wasted vital seconds changing the magazine on my rifle or went over the top and did it more quickly with the bayonet.
"I took the second option. I jumped up over the bank of the river. He was just over the other side, almost touching distance.
"We caught each other's eye as I went towards him but by then, for him, it was too late. There was no inner monologue going on in my head I was just reacting in the way that I was trained.
"He was alive when it went in – he wasn't alive when it came out – it was that simple."
Recalling his feelings in the moments afterwards Lt Adamson, said: "He was young, with dark hair. He only had kind of whispy hair on his chin, not a proper beard, so he wasn't that old, maybe a teenager.
"Afterwards, when he was dead, I picked up his PKM (Russian-made belt-fed machine gun) machine gun and slung it over my back.
"We then had to wait for more of my men to join us. We thought there could be more Taliban about and we were just watching our arcs of fire, waiting for more to come out of a big field of maize which came right up to the river we had been wading through.
"One of my men, Corporal Billy Carnegie, reached us, looked at the two dead Taliban on the ground and then saw the blood on my bayonet and said "boss what the **** have you been doing?"
The firefight, in July 2008, began during the middle an operation to push the Taliban out of an area close to the town of Musa Qala in northern Helmand.
Lt Adamson's platoon of 25-men, which was leading the assault, had just halted their advance when they were attacked.
Lt Adamson, who is single and comes from the Isle of Man, was moving between two eight man sections when a group of Taliban fighters attempted a flanking attack.
He continued: "The Taliban kept on probing us – sending in fighters to attack, first in twos then in fours.
"There was a gap between the two sections and the Taliban realised this and were sending in men to get between the two groups so they could split us up and isolate us.
"Myself and Corporal Fraser 'Hammy' Hamilton were wading nipple deep down a river which connected the two positions. Hammy was ahead when the Taliban fighter with the PKM (Russian machine gun) appeared from a maize field.
"There was an exchange of fire and 'Hammy' fired off his ammunition and then the weight of fire coming from the Taliban forced him under the water.
"The machine-gunner had also gone to ground but was still firing in our direction periodically. I had just caught up when 'Hammy' came up out of the water like a monster of the deep.
"Then another Taliban man came through the maize carrying an AK47. He was only three to four metres away.
"I immediately shot him with a burst from my rifle which was already set on automatic. He went down straight away and I knew I had hit him.
"Hammy said I shouted: 'have some of this' as I shot him but I can't remember that. I fired another burst at the PKM gunner and then that was me out of ammunition as well.
"That was when I decided to use the bayonet on him. It was a case of one second to bayonet him or two seconds to put on a fresh magazine.
"Nothing was really going through my mind but briefly I did think 'if this works out the boys will love it' – as in the rest of the platoon that I commanded.
"The undergrowth is so dense in the 'Green zone' that I often ordered bayonets fixed because you knew the distances between you and the Taliban could be very short. It is also good for morale."
His Military Cross citation read: "Adamson's supreme physical courage, combined with the calm leadership he continued to display after a very close encounter with the Taliban, were of the very highest order.
"His actions also neutralised an enemy flanking attack which could have resulted in casualties for his platoon."
Two weeks earlier Lt Adamson had won a Mention in Dispatches (MID) by leading his men in an ambush against the Taliban in the same area.
It is understood that the young lieutenant is the first member of the armed forces to receive two awards for gallantry during the same operational tour.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/6178044/British-officer-wins-two-gallantry-awards-for-fending-off-Taliban-attack-with-bayonet.html
 
The incongruous said:
Outside of any deliberations on the bayonet, this lieutenant is a hard***

I will concur with that assessment.

I am reading "On Killing". Good book. It takes a special kind of person to use the bayonet like he did. Good work.
 
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