Bayonet obsolete? Not yet, apparently -

[Infanteer]

Bayonet training and carrying a bayonet helps to instill the will into the soldier, regardless of how unlikely it is to be used

I've never bolstered due to a knife sitting on my webbing.  Canvasing the Afghan vets around the office also led to the same conclusion.

Training instinctive aggressiveness in soldiers does not require the carrying of a bayonet.  I can accomplish just as much with pugil stick fighting and milling.

Give me that chainsaw bayonet from Gears of War though....

 

[KevinB]

Arer there alternatives to bayonet training and bayoonets to instill willpoer into the soldier? Perhaps there are, a lifetime of training and indoctrination produced the Spartans and Samuai warriors, to use two historical examples, and VDH points out that democratic armies on what they see are "just wars" are pretty fierce fighters as well. The question is how do we instill this in the average recruit?

Propper combat shooting, and hand to hand skills.

 

[Kirkhill]

  I can accomplish just as much with pugil stick fighting and milling.

Pugil Stick .... isn't that kinda like a rifle with a padded butt and padding where the point thing is supposed to go?

Give it up you two. ;D

Sharp pointy thing good.  Sharp pointy thing with long blade better.  Sharp pointy thing with long handle just about as good - even if the "handle" is a plumber's nightmare.

Conversely club good.  Club with sharp pointy thing attached better - even if "club" is a plumber's nightmare.

If you are going to carry a knife, and it seems you all are, it costs nothing to put a device on the knife so that it attaches to your (for want of a better expression) rifle and puts some distance between you and the other bugger.

 

[sm1lodon]

They said guns on airplanes were obsolete, also, up to the Vietnam war, because they had this modern marvel, the Much Vaunted Guided Missile. Problem is, they had more planes to shoot down than missiles with which to do it. I.e. they ran out of ammo.

Then the pilots, to quote one source, were "Screaming for guns."

Bayonets will never be obsolete. Yes, it is preferable to kill your enemy with bullets. It's even more preferable to be piloting a remote UAV from an office chair in a bunker in the Nevada desert. Even more preferable, were it available would be to push some button somewhere that made all murderers drop their weapons, bow down in penitence to their god and perform community service for the rest of their natural lives.

But combat isn't about believing, naively, that the ideal will always or ever be available. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

The bayonet will never die. But people will continue to die on the sharp end of it, no matter what "experts" may say, sitting in their armchairs, about the obsolescence of such a stone-age concept as killing someone with a sharp instrument! Rather!

 

[Fusaki]

The bayonet will never die. But people will continue to die on the sharp end of it, no matter what "experts" may say, sitting in their armchairs, about the obsolescence of such a stone-age concept as killing someone with a sharp instrument! Rather!

:

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

Have you ever actually held a bayonet before?

 

[sm1lodon]

Yes.

 

[NL_engineer]

They said guns on airplanes were obsolete, also, up to the Vietnam war, because they had this modern marvel, the Much Vaunted Guided Missile. Problem is, they had more planes to shoot down than missiles with which to do it. I.e. they ran out of ammo.

Then the pilots, to quote one source, were "Screaming for guns."

Bayonets will never be obsolete. Yes, it is preferable to kill your enemy with bullets. It's even more preferable to be piloting a remote UAV from an office chair in a bunker in the Nevada desert. Even more preferable, were it available would be to push some button somewhere that made all murderers drop their weapons, bow down in penitence to their god and perform community service for the rest of their natural lives.

But combat isn't about believing, naively, that the ideal will always or ever be available. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

The bayonet will never die. But people will continue to die on the sharp end of it, no matter what "experts" may say, sitting in their armchairs, about the obsolescence of such a stone-age concept as killing someone with a sharp instrument! Rather!

Well if you plan on getting that close, fixing the bayonet will just get you killed; and using it as a fighting knife doesn't count.

Please tell me how the bayonet that only left mt vest only a handful of times over seas (for use as a prodding/digging tool), has a place on the modern battle field.

EDITED to add

Please provide us with proof and experience with your answers

 

[Journeyman]

....no more bearing .....than me reading a book by Richard Marcinko has on your experiences in theater.

Perhaps if more people listened to themselves....

 

[sm1lodon]

What I'm reflecting on is the information already posted above that demonstrates that bayonets are, indeed still useful in modern combat. People are using them, to this day, when they choose to, without being killed in the process.

I also noted that guns are still useful on combat aircraft, no matter what the experts said about that.

I make no other claims.

I will quote the original post in this thread:

Platoon-scale bayonet charge was British Army's first since the Falklands:

Friday 18 March 2005       

telegraph.co.uk

'I bayoneted people. It was me or them'
By Michael Smith, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 18/03/2005)

The daring and bravery shown in Iraq by the men of 1 Bn, the Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment were so outstanding that their battlegroup receives no fewer than 37 of the honours awarded today.

They include 33 gallantry awards, among them the Victoria Cross awarded to Pte Johnson Beharry, two Conspicuous Gallantry Crosses, the second highest award for gallantry, 10 Military Crosses and 17 Mentions in Dispatches.

The succession of heroic actions under fire included the first bayonet charge since the Falklands Conflict and the 23-day defence of the former governor's residence in Amarah under siege from a continuous attack.

The gallantry awards have made the Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment (PWRR) the most decorated in the history of the British Army, with a total of 57 Victoria Crosses and a host of other medals.

Although formed in only 1992, it is the senior English regiment of the line, tracing its history back to 1572, and its forebear regiments have fought in virtually all the major campaigns in which the Army has taken part.

Lt-Col Matt Maer, CO of 1 Bn, the PWRR, described yesterday how his men were forced to fight every day for five months in Iraq, coming under 860 separate attacks, with 109 alone on one day.

On the first day of their deployment they found themselves drawn into a three-hour running battle with insurgents, he said. "We knew it was going to be a very long and very hot summer."

The steadfast defence by Y Company of the former provincial governor's residence in Amarah saw a number of Military Crosses awarded to the battlegroup, which also included Royal Welch Fusiliers.

Major Justin Featherstone, the Y company commander, who, despite repeatedly being told he could withdraw if he saw fit refused to do so, is among the 10 members of the battlegroup awarded the Military Cross.

But it was inevitably the bayonet charge, led by Sgt Chris Broome, from Trowbridge, Wilts, who is awarded the Conspicuous Gallantry Cross, that captured the imagination.

The three-hour battle during which it took place began on May 14 last year when a dozen gunmen ambushed nine soldiers from the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in a pair of armoured Land Rovers.

The Argylls were attacked on the road to Amarah, with insurgents repeatedly attacking the vehicles with small arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades.

The Land Rovers sped through the ambushes only to come upon two dozen insurgents putting together an improvised roadside bomb.

Two platoons of the PWRR, a total of 40 men in four Warrior armoured vehicles, were sent from nearby Camp Condor to hunt down the bombers.

When they saw the insurgents waiting in ambush in foxholes alongside the road, the four infantry sections in the Warriors, 28 men in all, dismounted, carried out a flanking manoeuvre and charged the insurgents with fixed bayonets.

Cpl Mark Byles, 34, from Portsmouth, who is awarded the Military Cross, said: "The look on their faces was utter shock. They were under the impression we were going to lie in our ditch, shoot from a distance and they would run away.

"I slashed people, rifle-butted them. I was punching and kicking. It was either me or them. It didn't seem real. Anybody can pull a trigger from a distance, but we got up close and personal."


Now, there was no report of any of the soldiers using bayonets being killed.

So, that is my basis for claiming that bayonets are not obsolete, and evidently never will be.

Here are some thoughts about why planes need guns

http://www.72ndvfw.org/resources/train/0707strafing.pdf

My points, in brief, are that no amount of experience or opinion can discredit the facts that are presented, right here in this thread, and in materials available through research on Google, that bayonets are not obsolete, just like guns are not obsolete on planes.

 

[Journeyman]

So, what you are saying in brief, is that since you didn't use your bayonet for combat, that no one, ever, for the rest of the history of mankind, has any right to regard it as being useful, correct? That it has no place on the modern battlefield, for any combat use, whatsoever?

No, what I believe is being said by several people here, many with actual combat experience, is that there are more effective weapons.  It's a trade-off with weapon balance, weight, utility of alternate tools, and requirement to maintain skill sets.

Arguing against that position is one person, who may or may not have completed his CFAT, saying that bayonets are capable of killing an enemy, therefore everyone should continue carrying them.

That very same logic, with equally absent experience, holds that people can get killed crossing the street, so every infanteer should also carry a bus.  :

 

[vonGarvin]

No, what I believe is being said by several people here, many with actual combat experience, is that there are more effective weapons.  It's a trade-off with weapon balance, weight, utility of alternate tools, and requirement to maintain skill sets.

Arguing against that position is one person, who may or may not have completed his CFAT, saying that bayonets are capable of killing an enemy, therefore everyone should continue carrying them.

That very same logic, with equally absent experience, holds that people can get killed crossing the street, so every infanteer should also carry a bus.  :

Oh good God, please delete that, lest DLR see it and try to issue me a bus!!!!

 

[MJP]

So, what you are saying in brief, is that since you didn't use your bayonet for combat, that no one, ever, for the rest of the history of mankind, has any right to regard it as being useful, correct? That it has no place on the modern battlefield, for any combat use, whatsoever?

So, please, tell me, the experience and knowledge YOU have, having been present in every single engagement, no matter how small or great, where you have personally witnessed, with proof, in every single battle since, WWII onward, where you can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that under no circumstances, and on no occasion, has a bayonet EVER been used effectively as a weapons.

If you can prove that, that the bayonet has not been, and never will be, useful in any combat situation, ever with absolutely no exceptions whatsoever, then, we will give credence to YOUR point.

I wonder if you have truly read the thread carefully?  It has been shown a few times in the thread the usage of a bayonet in a recent combat situation.  No one is debating that fact,  however several people with quite a bit of experience have shown fallacies behind the argument that one should always have a bayonet.  Showing rather that it, like past weapons is becoming dated and better options for a user exist.

I hardly think that because it "may be useful in certain situations, so we should keep it" is a very valid argument.  As I6 said and  Journey man has eloquently pointed out. above.

Bayonets are antiques.

Yes you can use a Brown Bess to kill the Taliban too - but not a good idea.
  The 19th Century called and it wants it doctrine back...

The Lt. jumped first without thinking -- his pistol or reloading the rifle would have been better choices, as what happens when another target pops up?

Bring up one incident of a bayonet and I can bring up 10,000's situations that pistols or carbines have been used to greater effect.

Carry a good knife - but dint mount the damn thing --- trying bayonet fighting with a Flash Light, PEQ etc...

 

[NL_engineer]

So, what you are saying in brief, is that since you didn't use your bayonet for combat, that no one, ever, for the rest of the history of mankind, has any right to regard it as being useful, correct? That it has no place on the modern battlefield, for any combat use, whatsoever?

Yes the bayonet has been used, and has done well in its intended purpose.  With the sword being one the most used weapon throughout history, should I carry one of those too? by your logic yes  :

That very same logic, with equally absent experience, holds that people can get killed crossing the street, so every infanteer should also carry a bus.  :

it would prevent this from happening

I have been looking for an excuse to post it.

Edited to fix pic

 

[sm1lodon]

Sorry , I was in mid-edit when the dogs started piling again.

There are people on here who are of the opinion that the bayonet is obsolete. I don't believe that, based on fairly recent, and historic events.

They are free to do and believe whatever they wish as am I.

They believe the bayonet is obsolete, I don't, and neither did those dead Taliban, briefly, before they died, perhaps.

You having never flown in a plane doesn't invalidate air travel.

 

[medaid]

I think... I have solved DLRs problem.

Issue a bus with bayonets attached to the frame, then fill it with infanteers who shall wield swords to cut down their enemies from the windows. Ala Dawn of The Dead.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

I think... I have solved DLRs problem.

Issue a bus with bayonets attached to the frame, then fill it with infanteers who shall wield swords to cut down their enemies from the windows. Ala Dawn of The Dead.

Hey I think you are on to something.......

Someone promote him!


;D

 

[Loachman]

You having never flown in a plane doesn't invalidate air travel.

There is a significant difference between trying to get somewhere in a WWI SE5a and a modern Airbus, nein?

 

[George Wallace]

Hey I think you are on to something.......

Someone promote him!


;D

I don't know about promotion, but perhaps with the right "Documentation, Trials, and Prototypes" a $500 Suggestion Award may be in the offering.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Sorry , I was in mid-edit when the dogs started piling again.

There are people on here who are of the opinion that the bayonet is obsolete. I don't believe that, based on fairly recent, and historic events.

They are free to do and believe whatever they wish as am I.

They believe the bayonet is obsolete, I don't, and neither did those dead Taliban, briefly, before they died, perhaps.

You having never flown in a plane doesn't invalidate air travel.

Please state your experince with bayonets in an actual theater.

If you don't have any listen to what the members that have been over there have to say about the bayonet, both good and bad.


MILNET.CA MENTOR

 

[medaid]

I don't know about promotion, but perhaps with the right "Documentation, Trials, and Prototypes" a $500 Suggestion Award may be in the offering.

$500!!! NO WAY!!! Sweeet! Beers George?