Bayonet obsolete? Not yet, apparently -

[vonGarvin]

So good issues have been brought up. Especially in mout, will a bayonet properly defeat body armour ? what happens if u hit a trauma plate ? gonna have enough time to go for unprotected area?. With a side arm you could try a double to center and then to head/face or butt stroke to the face. I guess military sop is what need modifying , but being a knife nut the current blade sucks except as a door stop.    

A door stop?  Maybe on a doll house.  The bayonet is brittle and ineffective (the current issue bayonet that is).
Let's face it.  For an 18 year old recruit (yes, I was one once), the only thing sexier than the FN C1A1 with a  Bayonet fixed wore a bra. (I hope that came out right).  It makes the soldier aggressive when bayonets are fixed (not always useful, but if you are about to "close with and destroy", it helps).
As for pistols and C8s for all: whither shall we get these?  Would it be nice?  Sure would!  Heck, the MP5 would probably be better in a block 2 urban environment. (less chance to perforate a wall but great stopping power against a human chest).  But, as I mentioned previously, we could all "what if" this to death.  My point is simply that the bayonet is still useful.  The original post mentioned a bayonet charge in Iraq by a Brit unit.  The main point of that is not that the enemy were killed from a long range, but they actually "closed with and destroyed".  The shock effect on the enemy is sometimes enough to give you the upper hand.
As for being threatened by a bayonet and laughing, well, that's your perogative, and since I wasn't there, I have no idea what the situation was (the black knight of Monty Python fame threatening to bite off yer knee caps comes to mind), so, perhaps it was laughable.  Now suppose you have a dozen or so screaming, yelling "Huns" coming at you, and all you see is the gleam of steel.  Psychologically, that could be devestating.  Now, if you're in a LAV 3 APC as they do this, well...."Coax, Battle, Men, on!" "Battle on!" "Coax ready....fire!"  "Firing now, Target....Firing now, Target" "Target Stop" "Gun safe, first, wide, main, 200, Start Mode" "Switches up, over-ride off, Nav to turret, Start mode.  Man....what were they thinking?" "I dunno....gotta light?"
:fifty:

 

[gottyfunk]

Ok so we all beleive a bayonet is still a usefull tool, but who was the smart guy who decided to mount the frog on the middle of tac vest?
Who evers idea it was did some homework in qcb, I ve read and seen the odd subject on were to place a defense blade for the best retention and ease of draw and they all said on center chest area as it was a very easy
ly controled area. the article was very interesting and was written by the designer of the crkt hissatsu, its a traditional tanto blade(not the squared up one most us see). He addvicates mounting blade center mass and drawing on a ftf . It was in a older guns magizine couple years back . I am just wondering if the mounting of our bayonet has something to do with this midset ? or is it just ease of access? any ideas ?
 

 

[Kal]

while the carry site is good for drawing with either hand, it's not perfect.  it's as accessable to the enemy as it is for yourself, and it relatively easily to stop or hinder the draw of the knife just long enough for the enemy to draw one of his weapons, if they haven't already. 

 

[KevinB]

The centre line bayonet - can't be used rappeling or parachuting - and with the snap system good luck getting it in a hurry.

Also a large # have broken doing up he sees me down.  The current doctrine is to move it to the weak side C9 pouch

 

[paracowboy]

The centre line bayonet - can't be used rappeling or parachuting - and with the snap system good luck getting it in a hurry.

Also a large # have broken doing up he sees me down.   The current doctrine is to move it to the weak side C9 pouch

yup, push it around to your back, get it out of the way.

 

[LMN]

If EVERYONE was issued a sidearm, I'd MAYBE be willing to give up my bayonet.  Seeing how that's not going to happen anytime soon, I'll keep it thank you very much.  And even if I had a sidearm, I'd still be inclined to carry it with me.  I'd rather haul it and never use it than be stuck in a situation where I really needed it and didn't have it. 

Besides, they make a fairly decent utility knife...sharpen em up and you can cut that ol' ham steak in pinapple sauce into edible sizes.  That and I like to use it to cut hessian matting and rope instead of eating the blade on my pocket knife.

 

[dutchie]

I'd rather haul it and never use it than be stuck in a situation where I really needed it and didn't have it.  

If we selected what we were going to carry based on this idea, we'd all be loaded down with 450 lbs of mostly useless kit. We can't carry unlimited amounts of kit, we are very limited in space and weight. If you drive everywear, fine, put it in the truck/carrier. If you're rucking it, carry what's NEEDED, no more.

Besides, they make a fairly decent utility knife...sharpen em up and you can cut that ol' ham steak in pinapple sauce into edible sizes.

Mmmmm, yummee! I hope I get your bayonet next! All that delicious ham and pineapple sauce rotting on the inside of the scabbard!

That and I like to use it to cut hessian matting and rope instead of eating the blade on my pocket knife.

I think you need to invest in a new field knife if you 'eat the blade' on hessian and rope. That's what your supposed to cut with it, for God's sake.

 

[Britney Spears]

Quote from: LMN on Yesterday at 02:35:32
Besides, they make a fairly decent utility knife...sharpen em up and you can cut that ol' ham steak in pinapple sauce into edible sizes.

Mmmmm, yummee! I hope I get your bayonet next! All that delicious ham and pineapple sauce rotting on the inside of the scabbard!

I never fail to get a kick out of guys using issued blades (Bayonet, Gerber, C5 multitool, KFS) onfood. We recently made it a policy to wear rubber gloves when handling CLP (something I've been doing since the 3rd day I got in, due to the well known toxic and carcinogenic nature of CLP), the same CLP you use to polish those blades.


And you guys EAT with those things?  Gee I wish I could be as hard as you one day.....

 

[paracowboy]

ANYway, bottom line, the bayonet isn't going anywhere. Love it or hate it, you're still gonna be humpin' it. A couple hunnerd years from now, we're gonna have Interstellar Infantry gripin' 'bout how useless it is.

And back on track - Good on those Brits! (Me, I dunno. Prob'ly never enter into my thinking to fix bayonets, but it worked, so kudos to them!)

 

[Dale Turner]

Everyone seems to be complaining about having to "hump" a bayonet around with them. I'm not sure where you guys got your bayonet but mine's not that heavy! ;D

You can always use it as a mine probe.  I'd rather use the bayonet than my gerber.

 

[Britney Spears]

The weight isn't the problem, it the useless-ness that's the problem. The melmac plate  isn't heavy either, but who carries that that thing around?

 

[1feral1]

I'd rather have a bayonet and not need than need it and not have it.

Now there is a lot of pers who seem to have a mad hate for the ole Nella C7 bayonet. So, if you had to have a bayonet for your C7 wouild you want an M9? Or the new USMC version? Our the new Euro C-2000?

Did you know that the C7 Nella is a PI version of the US M7, and get this the M7 design goes back to the M4 for the US M1 Carbine in 1943, and the US M3 trench knife too.

Other bayonets follwed for the USM1 Garand in the Korean War( the M5), and then the bayonet for the M14 rifle too (late 1950s), then along came the US M7 for the M16 FOW. Recently and currently, its made in many countries including Germany, Canada, USA, Korea, The Philippines and even copies have turned up in China.

Plus its blade design type was also used on HK's G3 rifle, and this type was generic to Norway, Sweden, and the then West Germany. Also copied by the Turks too.

So even though you whinge and say it breaks, its been around for over 60 years, and the Cdn one is about the best, although the scabbard design has lacked creativity.

Now what about the new CF bayonet for the Diemaco C7 family? Its called the C-2000, and its going to be OD in colour (not black like its Euro counterpart), plus Eickhorn is making it, but it will be made in the UK, not in Germany or in Canada. Go figure, but the company was bought out by a UK firm. It will be capable of cutting wire too.

Now, get this, they'll also be serialised (on the blade), so they'll be controlled and tracked by CFR. So, not as easy to acquire as the old Nella which pop up even here at the gun shows, and are quite common around the world to collectors, etc. After all they have been around for 20 years now. Humm, time does fly.

One final thing, the screw driver on the end of the C-2000 scabbard is deleted on the Cdn model, so ya's won't get a poke in the chin when its worn inverted on your tac vests.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[honestyrules]

Like it or not COY MEDIC is right. The bayonet is our "mine prodder" too. Just like when you do your training for overseas...

 

[GO!!!]

How about when you GO overseas, and since you have so much shite on the end of your rifle and a 203, you can't mount a bayonet?

And since your bayonet is dull (not allowed to sharpen it) conductive (not a really great mine probe) and heavy when added to the 85lb rucks, it gets left behind with the gumby boots, arctic slippers and e-tool.

If you need more evidence of these being dropped on ops, look to the USMC, who is considering dropping it all together in favour of a utility knife.

And for fu(ks sakes, if you are in a minefield, call the Engineers!

 

[KevinB]

I prod with a section of cleaning rod.  Why - cause I dont carry my bayonet overseas  ;D

Secondly as GO stated - with PEQ/PAC, SF Light, M203 perhaps - exactly how much bayonet fighting do you expect to do?  For those who remember 10+ years ago when we used to training in UA Cbt and Bayonet and Pugil Stick Fighting weekly - those days are gone.

Putting a bayonet on the end of my C8 I would be a liability to myself and my teammates -

Try trying to slash, butstroke (never a good idea - giving the control are of your weapon to the enemy...)

I know its romantic - but get over it - its time came and has gone.  I still carry a blade on my kit - but it is to icepick people who put their hand on my pistol.

 

[Britney Spears]

Well it's nice to know all the CSS types are so enamoured with the bayonet and want to carry it everywhere between their teeth.

 

[vonGarvin]

OK, I am not a tradesman, I am in the combat arms, and people who decry the bayonet are probably the same ones who carry 100 feet of rope, a few d links, and other useless crap.   You are a weapon.   When your rifle jams or runs out of ammo, you still have it as a club.   Having a pointy end on it only serves to amplify your killing ability.   And lets not forget the psychological effect of a bayonet.   As the original post in this daisy chain stated, it served its purpose just a relatively short time ago.   Sure we have laser beams, hyperbaric weapons, GPS guided bombs and all that, but nothing says "I mean business" like a bayonet on the end of a rifle.  And I quote:

"The look on their faces was utter shock. They were under the impression we were going to lie in our ditch, shoot from a distance and they would run away.

"I slashed people, rifle-butted them. I was punching and kicking. It was either me or them. It didn't seem real. Anybody can pull a trigger from a distance, but we got up close and personal."

"Utter Shock".  Nothing like that to make a guy stop shooting at you....or breathing.....

 

[KevinB]

Yeah I might need that rope  :


Jungle - GO has some very valid points, how often to BN's do bayonet training?  and why is it only once in a blue moon?
Like anyone who is not taking his/her training seriously your going to get hurt if you think the bayonet is an effective weapon on a rifle if you don't practisie it a lot - and how often do we practise it in FULL kit.

Wearing a Gen III frag vest and plates plus Helmet - your mobility is SEVERLY constrained - you cannot do HALF (if not more) of the manuver that are taught - so why teach them.

Yes it is a pyschological item and gets troops worked up - but I put it to you so was the dawa that Congolese Witch Doctors prctised on the Simba's -- they beleived they where impervious to bullets -- The Belgian Para-Commando's demonstrated very clearly they were not!
  Similiarily the Belgians issues ALL their Para-Commando's with pistols while we where in Afghanistan.  Maybe they learned something?

Secondly the while the bayonet is good for stabbing people in the back (the Iraqi's in the intial question routed) - what happens if your enemy stands and fights - with weapons?

The NELLA bayonet is ass - I've broken 5-6 in my career, I never broke an FN bayonet.

And the dig against being a Cpl for X years - Not cool, so what Cpls are the ones out there doing the job and mentoring the young privates one on one in the Bn's - GO had a valid point that a lot arrive with DUMB ideas - ideas foisted them on the the BSL.

 

[vonGarvin]

I agree that bayonet training is not effective; however, the bayonet still is valid.  As for the Witch doctors and the psychological effect, that is not a good analogy for the effect of the bayonet.  A more valid analogy would be the All Blacks doing their dance prior to a match in order to "psych out" their opponents.  A bit of Psy-Ops, perhaps.  Regarding the bayonet, the problem is with the training, as mentioned.  Perhaps 70 lbs should be strapped on a lad and THEN go out and stab rubber targets, and for heaven's sake, get one that doesn't break when you try to peel an orange with it

 

[KevinB]

  It's not about being inspection ready.   It's having kit that the system can replace.   Your danners go kaput?   What do you do?   Order some from Blackhawk?   No.    You wear the issued kit (even though Danners or whatever may be better, but the Mk IV is "okay").  

What about us medically issued Danner folk?  In 1996 I was sent to a podietrist and as a result have been issued those boots ever since?  IF my boot blows out - worst case is I sign for an issue pair in my size UNTIL I can get a replacement.

The whole what happens if non issue stuff fails is a bit of a red herring as - it does not matter what failed - the system needs to have replacement kit - big deal IF I dont return the blown item - I'll simply sign for another set until I can get it worked out - No one can tell me that can't and does not work.



Back to the bayonet - sure use it - fill your boots but NO ONE can show me that the psychological "boost" it gives is a good idea in the current combat arena - use it to "hone" troops agression, sure.  IF it comes down to fighting witha  bayonet - I think there will be many troops who are no longer breathing and one can scavange ammo off them - I dont see the goign doing fighting in a coy postion with all at 'fixed bayonets' as logical or rationale choice.
I'd much rather spent the time it take to get one semi proficient at bayonet drills, into CQB shooting and FIBUA tactics so they DONT need to rely on a bayonet - HECK foreign weapon training would be time better spent.